Comments on: Ask Ajaxian: Are there clean techniques for writing JavaScript on the server? http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: Simon http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-252141 Simon Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:36:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-252141 Hi, For a full stack javascript development environment check out Zimki. http://www.zimki.com Si Hi,

For a full stack javascript development environment check out Zimki.

http://www.zimki.com

Si

]]> By: Olivier Mengué http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250919 Olivier Mengué Mon, 28 May 2007 10:40:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250919 In 1998 I was writing server side of web application in JavaScript on IIS. But at that time JavaScript support from Microsoft was much inferior to support for VBScript: - there was not yet exceptions in JScript, so clean error handling of errors in ActiveX components was impossible - the Microsoft documentation has only VBScript samples for ASP. I finally found how to initialize Application and Session with JScript, but it was awkful. - there was too many limits in available ActiveX components used to interact with the system. The only solution was to create new components in another language, which destroyed the aim to use only one language for both server-side and client-side. There was scripting engine, but not an useful enough API/framework. All those points also apply to <a href="http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ec0wcxh3.aspx" rel="nofollow">Microsoft Windows Sripting Host</a>. The last point is the main reason why I consider ASP and WSH to be missed opportunities from Microsoft. They have powerful scripting engines but they did not invest enough in interfaces/testing/documentation to make every part of the system available to them. They choose instead to try to ease the creation of ActiveX components with C# and .Net. In 1998 I was writing server side of web application in JavaScript on IIS.
But at that time JavaScript support from Microsoft was much inferior to support for VBScript:
- there was not yet exceptions in JScript, so clean error handling of errors in ActiveX components was impossible
- the Microsoft documentation has only VBScript samples for ASP. I finally found how to initialize Application and Session with JScript, but it was awkful.
- there was too many limits in available ActiveX components used to interact with the system. The only solution was to create new components in another language, which destroyed the aim to use only one language for both server-side and client-side. There was scripting engine, but not an useful enough API/framework.

All those points also apply to Microsoft Windows Sripting Host.
The last point is the main reason why I consider ASP and WSH to be missed opportunities from Microsoft. They have powerful scripting engines but they did not invest enough in interfaces/testing/documentation to make every part of the system available to them. They choose instead to try to ease the creation of ActiveX components with C# and .Net.

]]> By: Frank Thuerigen http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250908 Frank Thuerigen Sat, 26 May 2007 19:51:12 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250908 One thing about spamming (in response to Andys comment on Mikaels post): We are all sitting in one big boat here, some row, some sail and some fire their steam engines. I really like to hear about other ways of doing things, and try to learn from it. But I cannot try all these approaches, at a certain point I had to decide what my way is. Also I´m a bit proud of it, it took me some time to get there starting from scratch. My try was simply a balancing and simplifying approach. So I can clearly understand everybody that presents his system of doing things. In fact we all bring our systems on the table to open discussions on them - no feedback no gain. One thing about spamming (in response to Andys comment on Mikaels post):
We are all sitting in one big boat here, some row, some sail and some fire their steam engines. I really like to hear about other ways of doing things, and try to learn from it. But I cannot try all these approaches, at a certain point I had to decide what my way is. Also I´m a bit proud of it, it took me some time to get there starting from scratch. My try was simply a balancing and simplifying approach.
So I can clearly understand everybody that presents his system of doing things. In fact we all bring our systems on the table to open discussions on them – no feedback no gain.

]]> By: Frank Thuerigen http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250907 Frank Thuerigen Sat, 26 May 2007 19:34:16 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250907 As I understood the initial question was something like "I didn´t like JAVA to create HTML, now it also creates JS to it, and my code becomes more and more unreadable"... JAVA has its pro.s and contras - but it definitely is the one language most commonly used in big business citical systems, and I regard it as the most common gateway to any kind of Oracle DBs. In this, I share the authors sorrows about JAVA creating HTML and JS. This way the code becomes server heavy and complex beyond servicability. In my eyes the solution lies in one of Dions initial comment: let JAVA do what it is designed for - business processes - but the interface to the client should be strictly JSON objects, or if you prefer: XML. For everything else the server should simply deliver files, that is JS, HTML and CSS files. I have been working with this approach for a long time now, and I have no fear about the readability of my application code, no matter how complex the project. My system utilizes PHP on the server side. To completely convert it to JAVA you have to migrate 60 lines of trivial PHP code. On the client side, it is pure JS / HTML / CSS coding and webdesign. It is all 100% separated. @Jim: if you want to see it at work, try the link below. Regards, As I understood the initial question was something like “I didn´t like JAVA to create HTML, now it also creates JS to it, and my code becomes more and more unreadable”…
JAVA has its pro.s and contras – but it definitely is the one language most commonly used in big business citical systems, and I regard it as the most common gateway to any kind of Oracle DBs.
In this, I share the authors sorrows about JAVA creating HTML and JS. This way the code becomes server heavy and complex beyond servicability.
In my eyes the solution lies in one of Dions initial comment: let JAVA do what it is designed for – business processes – but the interface to the client should be strictly JSON objects, or if you prefer: XML.
For everything else the server should simply deliver files, that is JS, HTML and CSS files.
I have been working with this approach for a long time now, and I have no fear about the readability of my application code, no matter how complex the project.
My system utilizes PHP on the server side. To completely convert it to JAVA you have to migrate 60 lines of trivial PHP code. On the client side, it is pure JS / HTML / CSS coding and webdesign. It is all 100% separated.
@Jim: if you want to see it at work, try the link below.
Regards,

]]> By: jason moore http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250796 jason moore Thu, 24 May 2007 13:48:34 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250796 <blockquote>Java that writes HTML was bad enough. Java that writes JavaScript is even less readable.</blockquote> There's your problem. You need MVC or a templating system. System.out.println('hi'); is nasty. Don't do that.

Java that writes HTML was
bad enough. Java that writes JavaScript is even less readable.

There’s your problem. You need MVC or a templating system. System.out.println(‘hi’); is nasty. Don’t do that.

]]> By: chris holland http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250774 chris holland Thu, 24 May 2007 06:32:58 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250774 mikael: while you do pose interesting questions that merit their own discussion, i'm not sure i agree with your interpretation of the original post :) mikael: while you do pose interesting questions that merit their own discussion, i’m not sure i agree with your interpretation of the original post :)

]]> By: mikael bergkvist http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250772 mikael bergkvist Thu, 24 May 2007 04:44:07 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250772 The original post was about running javascript ON the server, and not about outputting javascript to the client FROM the server. It seems this got lost somehow.. :-) Further more, to run javascript on the server seem to call for a dhtml model, use of the DOM, on the server as well, and this is also getting lost. So, what if one could mirror the DHTML/DOM model on the server and have persistent variables, just like in the browser on the client, only with serverside objects? Well... The original post was about running javascript ON the server, and not about outputting javascript to the client FROM the server. It seems this got lost somehow.. :-)

Further more, to run javascript on the server seem to call for a dhtml model, use of the DOM, on the server as well, and this is also getting lost.

So, what if one could mirror the DHTML/DOM model on the server and have persistent variables, just like in the browser on the client, only with serverside objects?

Well…

]]> By: Thomas Hansen http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250752 Thomas Hansen Wed, 23 May 2007 15:25:53 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250752 The samples of Gaia (http://ajaxwidgets.com/AllControlsSamples/) are all built without ONE single line of custom JavaScript... .t The samples of Gaia (http://ajaxwidgets.com/AllControlsSamples/) are all built without ONE single line of custom JavaScript…

.t

]]> By: Andy Kant http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250751 Andy Kant Wed, 23 May 2007 15:25:07 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250751 If you know how to code JavaScript, do it manually. Otherwise, I've always heard good things about GWT but I've never used it (I tend to avoid Java like the plague). If you know how to code JavaScript, do it manually. Otherwise, I’ve always heard good things about GWT but I’ve never used it (I tend to avoid Java like the plague).

]]> By: Richard Marr http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250743 Richard Marr Wed, 23 May 2007 13:46:47 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250743 It depends where your expertese lies. If you've got a building full of Java programmers then GWT or similar might be for you. If you've got one or two developers who understand browser-side development on more than a superficial level then you should really build a nice tiered web service system. It depends where your expertese lies.

If you’ve got a building full of Java programmers then GWT or similar might be for you.

If you’ve got one or two developers who understand browser-side development on more than a superficial level then you should really build a nice tiered web service system.

]]> By: Roberto Giordando Barra http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250728 Roberto Giordando Barra Wed, 23 May 2007 05:42:53 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250728 As others already pointed out, I don't think it's a good idea to generate javascript with Java (or any other language). For me, what works best is to write all the code for the view and controls in javascript, and the code fo the model in Java, JSP, or both (using JSPs only to format data in JSON format). One problem caused by this approach is the initial delay caused by tons of javascript being loaded. A workaround that I use is to load at first only the declarations of the public functions and methods (as a C++ header) with small bodies. These bodies force the loading of a chunk of javascript that contains the real implementation of the method. I don't know if any framework or lib have sometinhg implemented to help with it, but it's easy to do somenthing simple by hand. I guess that dojo does something similar, but I'm not sure. As others already pointed out, I don’t think it’s a good idea to generate javascript with Java (or any other language).

For me, what works best is to write all the code for the view and controls in javascript, and the code fo the model in Java, JSP, or both (using JSPs only to format data in JSON format).

One problem caused by this approach is the initial delay caused by tons of javascript being loaded. A workaround that I use is to load at first only the declarations of the public functions and methods (as a C++ header) with small bodies. These bodies force the loading of a chunk of javascript that contains the real implementation of the method.

I don’t know if any framework or lib have sometinhg implemented to help with it, but it’s easy to do somenthing simple by hand. I guess that dojo does something similar, but I’m not sure.

]]> By: Ivan http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250726 Ivan Wed, 23 May 2007 05:18:17 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250726 This is alarming. With all of the awesome Java web frameworks you somehow have Java writing Javascript and returning it directly?Consider a remedial lesson in jsp templating. I'd suggest looking at something like Spring MVC to give you a sense of how you should be seperating your code. Checklist: 1. Your Java should return Java DATA 2. Rendered HTML should be passed through a template which for beginners I would recommend .jsp. 3. Javascript (do you mean JSON?) can be returned via a transformer like XStream. If you feel you're learning or implementing rocket science to tie Javascript to Java, you're doing something very wrong. I wish I had more time to lay it out, but its bedtime. This is alarming. With all of the awesome Java web frameworks you somehow have Java writing Javascript and returning it directly?Consider a remedial lesson in jsp templating. I’d suggest looking at something like Spring MVC to give you a sense of how you should be seperating your code.

Checklist:
1. Your Java should return Java DATA
2. Rendered HTML should be passed through a template which for beginners I would recommend .jsp.
3. Javascript (do you mean JSON?) can be returned via a transformer like XStream.

If you feel you’re learning or implementing rocket science to tie Javascript to Java, you’re doing something very wrong.
I wish I had more time to lay it out, but its bedtime.

]]> By: kourge http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250725 kourge Wed, 23 May 2007 02:54:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250725 There are in many instances where JavaScript on server-side comes to play, but they either mix with Java, have their own variant, or whatnot. There's almost no pure server-side JavaScript, unlike PHP. wx_js is a good example of what server-side JavaScript should be, and, like all server-side scripting languages, JavaScript needs to be deployed and wide-spread enough to gain advantages. Most hosting companies provide PHP, Perl, Python, and sometimes Ruby, but no JavaScript, because no single server-side JavaScript implementation has been shown to be mature enough. There are in many instances where JavaScript on server-side comes to play, but they either mix with Java, have their own variant, or whatnot. There’s almost no pure server-side JavaScript, unlike PHP. wx_js is a good example of what server-side JavaScript should be, and, like all server-side scripting languages, JavaScript needs to be deployed and wide-spread enough to gain advantages. Most hosting companies provide PHP, Perl, Python, and sometimes Ruby, but no JavaScript, because no single server-side JavaScript implementation has been shown to be mature enough.

]]> By: norman http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250724 norman Wed, 23 May 2007 01:23:52 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250724 might this helpful? http://projects.nikhilk.net/Projects/ScriptSharp.aspx might this helpful?
http://projects.nikhilk.net/Projects/ScriptSharp.aspx

]]> By: Jesse Kuhnert http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250722 Jesse Kuhnert Tue, 22 May 2007 23:22:25 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250722 I don't like being too direct about advertising but since I didn't implement it anyways .... Tapestry has supported a javascript templating ability for as long as I've used it. It doesn't try to auto-generate javascript for you but it sure does make it a ~lot~ easier to write complimentary javascript code for whatever you are doing on the server. The script template language (very velocity-like): http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry4.1/usersguide/script.html And an example of using it: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/tapestry/tapestry4/trunk/tapestry-framework/src/java/org/apache/tapestry/dojo/html/InlineEditBox.script?view=markup I don’t like being too direct about advertising but since I didn’t implement it anyways ….

Tapestry has supported a javascript templating ability for as long as I’ve used it. It doesn’t try to auto-generate javascript for you but it sure does make it a ~lot~ easier to write complimentary javascript code for whatever you are doing on the server.

The script template language (very velocity-like):
http://tapestry.apache.org/tapestry4.1/usersguide/script.html

And an example of using it:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/tapestry/tapestry4/trunk/tapestry-framework/src/java/org/apache/tapestry/dojo/html/InlineEditBox.script?view=markup

]]> By: chris holland http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250720 chris holland Tue, 22 May 2007 22:20:49 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250720 I'll "third" Mike and Ryan's suggestion about DWR, if you work with Java. A couple of days ago, i released IBDOM to dramatically ease the process of injecting JavaScript objects (retrieved asynchronously thru DWR or any other framework), into your document. DWR also goes to great lengths to bulletproof developers against security issues surrounding services that output javascript. Here are some URLs: DWR: http://getahead.org/dwr IBDOM: http://ibdom.sourceforge.net/ (i just put out today some more documentation, an interactive demo, and fixes to ibdom.js to put in the next release, but which you can just download straight from the SVN HEAD) I’ll “third” Mike and Ryan’s suggestion about DWR, if you work with Java.

A couple of days ago, i released IBDOM to dramatically ease the process of injecting JavaScript objects (retrieved asynchronously thru DWR or any other framework), into your document.

DWR also goes to great lengths to bulletproof developers against security issues surrounding services that output javascript.

Here are some URLs:

DWR: http://getahead.org/dwr
IBDOM: http://ibdom.sourceforge.net/ (i just put out today some more documentation, an interactive demo, and fixes to ibdom.js to put in the next release, but which you can just download straight from the SVN HEAD)

]]> By: mikael bergkvist http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250719 mikael bergkvist Tue, 22 May 2007 22:05:46 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250719 "Eh.. Mikael, how come that whenever I see you post, You always put it up as advertisement for your project ? " - Only when it's relevant to do so, I dont think I'm spamming.. I rarely post anything here or anywhere else, but in this case it's a slam-dunk. It's spot on what we do, so why shouldn't I? “Eh.. Mikael, how come that whenever I see you post, You always put it up as advertisement for your project ? ”

- Only when it’s relevant to do so, I dont think I’m spamming..
I rarely post anything here or anywhere else, but in this case it’s a slam-dunk.
It’s spot on what we do, so why shouldn’t I?

]]> By: Wade Harrell http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250715 Wade Harrell Tue, 22 May 2007 17:46:28 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250715 "Finally. web services matter: You can code the server side to speak web services, and then the client is responsible for doing the right thing, and both are very separate layers." 'nuff said “Finally. web services matter: You can code the server side to speak web services, and then the client is responsible for doing the right thing, and both are very separate layers.”

’nuff said

]]> By: Lars Trieloff http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250714 Lars Trieloff Tue, 22 May 2007 17:35:17 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250714 It makes sense not to generate any application Javascript on the server side. Instead, Javascript files that form the client application should be delivered statically (with good caching) and exchange with the server should only include data requests. A resource requested can then be represented using XML or JSON (this is an exception where generating Javascript on server makes sense, but there are also very good frameworks for this purpose) What language is used at server side is not relevant, as long as the web application framework is able to create multiple views of a resource, e.g. the HTML view, the RSS view and the JSON view. It makes sense not to generate any application Javascript on the server side. Instead, Javascript files that form the client application should be delivered statically (with good caching) and exchange with the server should only include data requests. A resource requested can then be represented using XML or JSON (this is an exception where generating Javascript on server makes sense, but there are also very good frameworks for this purpose)

What language is used at server side is not relevant, as long as the web application framework is able to create multiple views of a resource, e.g. the HTML view, the RSS view and the JSON view.

]]> By: Michael Mahemoff http://ajaxian.com/archives/ask-ajaxian-are-there-clean-techniques-for-writing-javascript-on-the-server/comment-page-1#comment-250713 Michael Mahemoff Tue, 22 May 2007 17:24:22 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=2420#comment-250713 Leaving aside the possibility of actually running JS in the server (which is very tantalising http://softwareas.com/phobos-server-side-js-redux), how does your server output JS? Personally, I don't much buy into frameworks that magically produce JS for you. JS is a first class language and if you cleanly separate tiers, outputting JS should be no more than writing some JS into a file and placing that file on your server for static consumption. No auto-generating JS on the fly. This does imply all programmers know JS, but if you have a *web* developer cutting Ajax apps, I think that's fair game for typical mainstream development. With appropriate use of libraries, any competent developer can produce portable, robust, JS without being a Javascripting guru. Leaving aside the possibility of actually running JS in the server (which is very tantalising http://softwareas.com/phobos-server-side-js-redux), how does your server output JS?

Personally, I don’t much buy into frameworks that magically produce JS for you. JS is a first class language and if you cleanly separate tiers, outputting JS should be no more than writing some JS into a file and placing that file on your server for static consumption. No auto-generating JS on the fly.

This does imply all programmers know JS, but if you have a *web* developer cutting Ajax apps, I think that’s fair game for typical mainstream development. With appropriate use of libraries, any competent developer can produce portable, robust, JS without being a Javascripting guru.

]]>