Comments on: Brendan Eich: JavaScript 2 evolution and the myth busting Tracing JIT http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: rocer http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259612 rocer Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:22:05 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259612 I like "like". It is similar, if not identical, in purpose to my validate[1], which originally also was called "like" :-) So basically, when using my lib you can already have some JavaScript2ness right now! I wonder, if you can use "like" to check functional properties of an object to get something like interfaces? Anyway, version 2 looks much shorter and better than version 1, although version 1 could look much shorter and better when using type checking and validation that come with my lib. I hope everything works out for JavaScript 2. From what i can see in the above example, it will support us programmers more and thus reduce development time and bug numbers. [1] http://www.cerny-online.com/cerny.js/documentation/schema/schema#validate I like “like”. It is similar, if not identical, in purpose to my
validate[1], which originally also was called “like” :-) So basically,
when using my lib you can already have some JavaScript2ness right now!
I wonder, if you can use “like” to check functional properties of an
object to get something like interfaces? Anyway, version 2 looks much
shorter and better than version 1, although version 1 could look
much shorter and better when using type checking and validation that
come with my lib. I hope everything works out for JavaScript 2. From
what i can see in the above example, it will support us programmers
more and thus reduce development time and bug numbers.

[1] http://www.cerny-online.com/cerny.js/documentation/schema/schema#validate

]]> By: Dustin Diaz http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259590 Dustin Diaz Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:52:25 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259590 It depends which episode. Besides, I think we got off on the wrong foot. I will have to post some follow up questions on my blog. I'll be sure to notify you when they're up. It depends which episode. Besides, I think we got off on the wrong foot. I will have to post some follow up questions on my blog. I’ll be sure to notify you when they’re up.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259589 Brendan Eich Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:53:45 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259589 Dustin: no, Jedi Knight -- Fett was a bounty hunter (scum ;-). I went out of my way to cast you in a positive (but perhaps doomed :-/) role. /be Dustin: no, Jedi Knight — Fett was a bounty hunter (scum ;-). I went out of my way to cast you in a positive (but perhaps doomed :-/) role.

/be

]]> By: Dustin Diaz http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259586 Dustin Diaz Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:11:55 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259586 Apparently I'm a night. I guess that makes me Boba Fett. Apparently I’m a night. I guess that makes me Boba Fett.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259582 Brendan Eich Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:36:53 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259582 Dion, you may want a separate item on this: the tutorial on evolutionary programming in ES4 is up at http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/evolutionary-programming-tutorial.pdf I didn't want to fill my talk with code for the audience to squint at -- I had to have some geek culture reference fun and screaming monkey attacks too. But this document by Lars Hansen is well worth reading and studying. /be Dion, you may want a separate item on this: the tutorial on evolutionary programming in ES4 is up at

http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/evolutionary-programming-tutorial.pdf

I didn’t want to fill my talk with code for the audience to squint at — I had to have some geek culture reference fun and screaming monkey attacks too. But this document by Lars Hansen is well worth reading and studying.

/be

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259581 Brendan Eich Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:35:02 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259581 grayrest: yes, as copiously noted in my blog, "preliminary" "research results" (btw, researchers can't get published if they don't work in Java and on HotSpot or Jikes/RVM, sad but true) -- but HotSpot's compilation time is not relevant to runtime, and I noted an x86 back end is under way, which bypasses HotSpot entirely. For Tamarin, we have x86 code generation, just not recast (and simplified) in trace-tree JIT form. That's the next step. So, not the next Firefox release -- the one after that. Thanks for mentioning ScreamingMonkey :-). jake: Jackson Pollack's abstract expressionism (crap in my book :-|) is far from JS. Anyway software is not purely art. Good ideas and engineering results from programming language history do not all come from Scheme and Self through Doug's reductionistic filter. If you can only compare JS1 to a mess of paint, and don't know what JS2 is, please study some of the links in my blog post -- especially the one to Peter Norvig's presentation on how design patterns, like the ones Doug pushes, are artifacts of language bugs. /be grayrest: yes, as copiously noted in my blog, “preliminary” “research results” (btw, researchers can’t get published if they don’t work in Java and on HotSpot or Jikes/RVM, sad but true) — but HotSpot’s compilation time is not relevant to runtime, and I noted an x86 back end is under way, which bypasses HotSpot entirely. For Tamarin, we have x86 code generation, just not recast (and simplified) in trace-tree JIT form. That’s the next step.

So, not the next Firefox release — the one after that.

Thanks for mentioning ScreamingMonkey :-).

jake: Jackson Pollack’s abstract expressionism (crap in my book :-|) is far from JS. Anyway software is not purely art. Good ideas and engineering results from programming language history do not all come from Scheme and Self through Doug’s reductionistic filter.

If you can only compare JS1 to a mess of paint, and don’t know what JS2 is, please study some of the links in my blog post — especially the one to Peter Norvig’s presentation on how design patterns, like the ones Doug pushes, are artifacts of language bugs.

/be

]]> By: grayrest http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259576 grayrest Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:33:42 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259576 The interesting thing about that trace tree JIT is that the authors of the paper claim that they can do a lot better because hot spot (the entire thing is written in java) is generating poor machine code because the their JIT output doesn't look like normal Java code. What's also not mentioned in the slides is that the numbers for both rhino and the JIT don't include time spent in the java runtime (the paper gives the example of 8 seconds of a 15 second run being spent in java setup). This doesn't mean the numbers are dishonest, just realize that they're research results and not something that'll show up in this coming Firefox release. As for the ES4 changes, I'm not happy with the Java constructs making their way into the language (particularly access contol). On the other hand, I like all the other changes. Just having java-like constructs doesn't automatically mean importing Java best practices idiocy, right? The interesting thing about that trace tree JIT is that the authors of the paper claim that they can do a lot better because hot spot (the entire thing is written in java) is generating poor machine code because the their JIT output doesn’t look like normal Java code. What’s also not mentioned in the slides is that the numbers for both rhino and the JIT don’t include time spent in the java runtime (the paper gives the example of 8 seconds of a 15 second run being spent in java setup). This doesn’t mean the numbers are dishonest, just realize that they’re research results and not something that’ll show up in this coming Firefox release.

As for the ES4 changes, I’m not happy with the Java constructs making their way into the language (particularly access contol). On the other hand, I like all the other changes. Just having java-like constructs doesn’t automatically mean importing Java best practices idiocy, right?

]]> By: jake http://ajaxian.com/archives/brendan-eich-javascript-2-evolution-and-the-myth-busting-tracing-jit/comment-page-1#comment-259567 jake Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:14:38 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3063#comment-259567 In art, typically the art critic, Doug, better understands what the artist, Brendon, has created. I think JS1 is a masterpiece in the style of Jackson Pollack...I am not sure what JS2 is. In art, typically the art critic, Doug, better understands what the artist, Brendon, has created. I think JS1 is a masterpiece in the style of Jackson Pollack…I am not sure what JS2 is.

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