Comments on: Digg takes the time to study the pain of IE 6 http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6 Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: sixtyseconds http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274554 sixtyseconds Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:31:18 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274554 I get the feeling that people don't actually read comments before repeating the same stuff... -.- I get the feeling that people don’t actually read comments before repeating the same stuff… -.-

]]> By: kallisti5 http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274547 kallisti5 Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:00:14 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274547 There is a simple cause of companies staying on IE6... crappy IE6 based business software. Example: Company has a huge custom Siebel system they spend boatloads of money on. Siebel version running only works reliably (cough) on IE6. Company does not want to spend money/time/downtime upgrading siebel. Everyone has to keep using IE6... I don't understand why people only want to use one browser and wont use two browsers, but it happens. I've fought the good fight trying to get people drop IE6, but its like pulling teeth. Personally I've quit working around IE6 in my web projects.. if it don't work for you in IE6... too bad. There is a simple cause of companies staying on IE6… crappy IE6 based business software.

Example:
Company has a huge custom Siebel system they spend boatloads of money on.
Siebel version running only works reliably (cough) on IE6.
Company does not want to spend money/time/downtime upgrading siebel.
Everyone has to keep using IE6… I don’t understand why people only want to use one browser and wont use two browsers, but it happens. I’ve fought the good fight trying to get people drop IE6, but its like pulling teeth.

Personally I’ve quit working around IE6 in my web projects.. if it don’t work for you in IE6… too bad.

]]> By: sixtyseconds http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274489 sixtyseconds Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:19:02 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274489 Surely, all it takes is for plugin developers (or browser developers) to build support for ActiveX, and create a shim for crappy DOM/Javascript implementations these legacy systems have come to expect of IE6. Then we can all stop having a go at IT departments and drop IE once and for all... Surely, all it takes is for plugin developers (or browser developers) to build support for ActiveX, and create a shim for crappy DOM/Javascript implementations these legacy systems have come to expect of IE6. Then we can all stop having a go at IT departments and drop IE once and for all…

]]> By: megrim http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274488 megrim Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:55:18 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274488 I have a custom CSS template for IE 6, in fact my new webs use the mobile/handhelds template for IE 6 :) and place an informative box "Please, upgrade your browser to one of this options". No special effects, no skin, only header images. Every web developer should have a simple standard solution for this issue, no matter which you decide to implement or how small the changes are. Waiting for the users or institutions to upgrade by their own initiative won't work. WinXP still has a long road ahead. I have a custom CSS template for IE 6, in fact my new webs use the mobile/handhelds template for IE 6 :) and place an informative box “Please, upgrade your browser to one of this options”. No special effects, no skin, only header images. Every web developer should have a simple standard solution for this issue, no matter which you decide to implement or how small the changes are. Waiting for the users or institutions to upgrade by their own initiative won’t work. WinXP still has a long road ahead.

]]> By: genericallyloud http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274485 genericallyloud Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:15:04 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274485 What we really need is a site-specific browser for ie6. Then users could upgrade to whatever browser they need without screwing up their old intranet apps. We just need something specific for legacy. Kind of like how OSX and now Windows 7 provide a virtualization of the legacy OS they need to support. If people can simultaneously upgrade their technology without losing what they have, they're more likely to make the switch because it eases transition. What we really need is a site-specific browser for ie6. Then users could upgrade to whatever browser they need without screwing up their old intranet apps. We just need something specific for legacy. Kind of like how OSX and now Windows 7 provide a virtualization of the legacy OS they need to support. If people can simultaneously upgrade their technology without losing what they have, they’re more likely to make the switch because it eases transition.

]]> By: ysharma http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274479 ysharma Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:28:42 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274479 I am the unfortunate few who has to use ie6 at work. I was so tempted to not look at my last project on ie6, but when I did, I couldn't resist making changes to get some compatibility issues ironed out. it took me a good 30% of total project time. I am the unfortunate few who has to use ie6 at work. I was so tempted to not look at my last project on ie6, but when I did, I couldn’t resist making changes to get some compatibility issues ironed out. it took me a good 30% of total project time.

]]> By: Nosredna http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274477 Nosredna Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:22:08 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274477 http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp As some others have said, it looks like IE8 is picking up IE7 users more than it's picking up IE6 users. Pretty soon we'll have an IE6/IE8 split. When IE9 comes out, we'll probably have an IE6/IE9 split. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp As some others have said, it looks like IE8 is picking up IE7 users more than it’s picking up IE6 users. Pretty soon we’ll have an IE6/IE8 split. When IE9 comes out, we’ll probably have an IE6/IE9 split.

]]> By: Trygve http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274475 Trygve Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:11:49 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274475 This is kind of old news. In february <a href="http://www.trygve-lie.com/blog/entry/bye_bye_to_ie6_in" rel="nofollow">a campain to get IE6 users to upgrade</a> startet to run among the largest websites in Norway. Even <a href="http://tekniskbeta.no/ms-støtter-ie6-saken/" rel="nofollow">Microsoft supported the campain</a> (sorry; only in norwegian). In retrospect we see the number of IE6 users slowly decreasing but we do also see large companies and institutions still not upgrading here in Norway. The largest bluk of compaines / institutions still running IE6 here in Norway can be tracked down to a couple of handfull. The main problem is that upgrading IE6 is not the problem or the cost. The problem and the cost are located to internal systems these companies / institutions use. Mainly intranett systems which are pretty old and use MS propretary features. Upgrading IE6 will force an upgrade of these systems which does cost money. This is the root of the problem :| This is kind of old news. In february a campain to get IE6 users to upgrade startet to run among the largest websites in Norway. Even Microsoft supported the campain (sorry; only in norwegian).

In retrospect we see the number of IE6 users slowly decreasing but we do also see large companies and institutions still not upgrading here in Norway. The largest bluk of compaines / institutions still running IE6 here in Norway can be tracked down to a couple of handfull. The main problem is that upgrading IE6 is not the problem or the cost. The problem and the cost are located to internal systems these companies / institutions use. Mainly intranett systems which are pretty old and use MS propretary features. Upgrading IE6 will force an upgrade of these systems which does cost money. This is the root of the problem :|

]]> By: mjuhl http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274474 mjuhl Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:40:57 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274474 As developers, we should really start charging clients an inordinate amount of money to make their sites IE6 compliant, shouldn't we? If we're stuck with this p.o.s. we should capitalize on it! As developers, we should really start charging clients an inordinate amount of money to make their sites IE6 compliant, shouldn’t we? If we’re stuck with this p.o.s. we should capitalize on it!

]]> By: Nosredna http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274473 Nosredna Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:25:52 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274473 >>F*ck. And whose fault is it? Ours! For keeping our sites supporting IE 6. What difference does that 17% make when over 60% are on work computers and can't upgrade? When the 60+% at work don't have to be on IE6 anymore, we can drop IE6 support and that 17% will come along. >>F*ck. And whose fault is it? Ours! For keeping our sites supporting IE 6.

What difference does that 17% make when over 60% are on work computers and can’t upgrade? When the 60+% at work don’t have to be on IE6 anymore, we can drop IE6 support and that 17% will come along.

]]> By: cdc1671 http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274472 cdc1671 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:22:05 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274472 Being a web applications developer for a large corporation and required to still support IE6 in all fairness I think the IE7/IE8 bashing could be toned down. The level of effort to back-port my work to IE7 is about 1/10th of what it takes to support IE6. I'm definately in the "upgrade to ANY modern browser" camp. Though for development you'll be prying firefox/firebug out of my cold dead hard drive. :-) Being a web applications developer for a large corporation and required to still support IE6 in all fairness I think the IE7/IE8 bashing could be toned down. The level of effort to back-port my work to IE7 is about 1/10th of what it takes to support IE6. I’m definately in the “upgrade to ANY modern browser” camp. Though for development you’ll be prying firefox/firebug out of my cold dead hard drive. :-)

]]> By: gossi http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274471 gossi Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:18:39 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274471 Just image if browser vendors turn the update process of their browser into a push service (Like the Google Update Channels). So, everybody always has the newest version. How fast the web could evolve... well dreaming is allowed :) Just image if browser vendors turn the update process of their browser into a push service (Like the Google Update Channels). So, everybody always has the newest version. How fast the web could evolve…

well dreaming is allowed :)

]]> By: MattCoz http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274468 MattCoz Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:09:37 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274468 > F*ck. And whose fault is it? Ours! For keeping our sites supporting IE 6. Hey, I try, but then a client asks why it doesn't work in IE6 and I then have to make it work. I've got one that uses IE6 exclusively, but they have said that they're considering upgrading to IE8, which I'm planning a party for the day they do. > F*ck. And whose fault is it? Ours! For keeping our sites supporting IE 6.

Hey, I try, but then a client asks why it doesn’t work in IE6 and I then have to make it work. I’ve got one that uses IE6 exclusively, but they have said that they’re considering upgrading to IE8, which I’m planning a party for the day they do.

]]> By: nathany http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274467 nathany Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:55:46 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274467 I definitely agree with @LeaVerou, @andysky and @genericallyloud ... IE6 should be Intranet only, with a more secure primary browser. I think users are smart enough to handle "Internet" (Firefox) vs. "whatever legacy app" (IE6) in their start menu. I definitely agree with @LeaVerou, @andysky and @genericallyloud … IE6 should be Intranet only, with a more secure primary browser.

I think users are smart enough to handle “Internet” (Firefox) vs. “whatever legacy app” (IE6) in their start menu.

]]> By: genericallyloud http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274466 genericallyloud Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:36:40 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274466 @Amtiskaw - While that may sound completely reasonable, its also wrong. Although the surface area of two applications is higher than one, you forget the benefits of keeping legacy intranet apps separate from general browsing. If the only reason a person uses ie6 is for intranet apps, they won't be vulnerable to several types of attacks on both the user's computer, but also the intranet apps. For example, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_request_forgery" rel="nofollow">cross-site request forgery</a> is an attack that will only work if a user uses the same browser for both the target and malicious site. Also, assuming that a user only uses ie6 for intranet apps, the major security vulnerabilities from malicious sites can be avoided. While there may be a cost in maintenance, its just not as clear cut as you suggest. @Amtiskaw – While that may sound completely reasonable, its also wrong. Although the surface area of two applications is higher than one, you forget the benefits of keeping legacy intranet apps separate from general browsing. If the only reason a person uses ie6 is for intranet apps, they won’t be vulnerable to several types of attacks on both the user’s computer, but also the intranet apps. For example, cross-site request forgery is an attack that will only work if a user uses the same browser for both the target and malicious site. Also, assuming that a user only uses ie6 for intranet apps, the major security vulnerabilities from malicious sites can be avoided.

While there may be a cost in maintenance, its just not as clear cut as you suggest.

]]> By: ajaxery http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274465 ajaxery Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:24:55 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274465 As for the reason that IT admins don't have Firefox, Chrome, or Safari alongside IE6 is that they would have to support yet another piece of software. They already have to deal with so much crap from ignorant users that they probably don't want to add more hassle to their job. Not saying I'm right, just a thought. As for the reason that IT admins don’t have Firefox, Chrome, or Safari alongside IE6 is that they would have to support yet another piece of software. They already have to deal with so much crap from ignorant users that they probably don’t want to add more hassle to their job.

Not saying I’m right, just a thought.

]]> By: mojave http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274463 mojave Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:43:08 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274463 If there is anything I've learned from sitting in the System Administrator chair for many a year it's that when users CAN'T WORK because of decisions made by their IT departments, the IT department gets it's decisions made for it. Break IE 6 and users will upgrade, period, their IT departments will FORCE them to. I'm sick of hearing these cute little excuses. If there is anything I’ve learned from sitting in the System Administrator chair for many a year it’s that when users CAN’T WORK because of decisions made by their IT departments, the IT department gets it’s decisions made for it. Break IE 6 and users will upgrade, period, their IT departments will FORCE them to.

I’m sick of hearing these cute little excuses.

]]> By: Amtiskaw http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274461 Amtiskaw Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:01:44 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274461 Sys-admins will never install two browsers when one will do, and who can blame them? Two browsers means more time spent installing and upgrading. It also gives twice the surface area for potential attack. Sure, modern browsers are more secure than IE6, but they still have security holes, and if you've got them <em>and</em> IE6 installed then that's twice as many security advisories you have to track, and patches you've got to apply. Also, whenever someone calls the help-desk with a web related problem, you've got to find out what browser they're using before you can help them. Sys-admins will never install two browsers when one will do, and who can blame them? Two browsers means more time spent installing and upgrading. It also gives twice the surface area for potential attack. Sure, modern browsers are more secure than IE6, but they still have security holes, and if you’ve got them and IE6 installed then that’s twice as many security advisories you have to track, and patches you’ve got to apply. Also, whenever someone calls the help-desk with a web related problem, you’ve got to find out what browser they’re using before you can help them.

]]> By: WillPeavy http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274460 WillPeavy Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:44:18 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274460 Awesome, I'm glad they did this study. The best part: "Giving them a message saying, 'Hey! Upgrade!' in this case is not only pointless; it’s sadistic." Awesome, I’m glad they did this study.

The best part: “Giving them a message saying, ‘Hey! Upgrade!’ in this case is not only pointless; it’s sadistic.”

]]> By: rasmusfl0e http://ajaxian.com/archives/digg-takes-the-time-to-study-the-pain-of-ie-6/comment-page-1#comment-274459 rasmusfl0e Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:22:26 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=7093#comment-274459 The bitter irony of it all at my work is that even though the higher-ups are now aware of the pitfalls (and inevitable extra cost) of developing towards a single browser - they still chose to replace the internally distributed browser IE6 with... IE8... *doh* The rollout of the newer browser can only be done once all intranet applications have been upgraded to run in IE8 (meaning not necessarily standard-compliant). In the meantime I'm developing apps in FireFox (and Safari/Chrome) because I too am locked to IE6 which won't be of any help testing/developing... And I'll have the distinct pleasure of backporting whatever I've done that runs smoothly in Firefox to IE8 once it replaces IE6... I'm really at a loss for words. The bitter irony of it all at my work is that even though the higher-ups are now aware of the pitfalls (and inevitable extra cost) of developing towards a single browser – they still chose to replace the internally distributed browser IE6 with… IE8… *doh*

The rollout of the newer browser can only be done once all intranet applications have been upgraded to run in IE8 (meaning not necessarily standard-compliant). In the meantime I’m developing apps in FireFox (and Safari/Chrome) because I too am locked to IE6 which won’t be of any help testing/developing… And I’ll have the distinct pleasure of backporting whatever I’ve done that runs smoothly in Firefox to IE8 once it replaces IE6…

I’m really at a loss for words.

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