Comments on: “Get the facts” from Microsoft Marketing http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: WebReflection http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274079 WebReflection Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:22:48 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274079 @Joeri, complex web apps via Ext JS is my daily work. Big differences between IE8 and 6 via Ext? Nothing compared with the feeling you can have via Chrome, for example, or others. The reason IE is reasonably responsive in IE as well is that Ext JS team put a lot of effort to make IE sufficiently fast. Still, when things become more complicated and you use complex personal gadgets/logic inside some Ext floating window, take the chronometer and check he difference: Internet Explorer is slow! The browser for today web tasks? Just have a ride in TaskSpeed and see, even with a partially bugged document query selector how slow is, generally speaking, IE ... and for general daily basis tasks. Is version 8 better than 7 ? HOPEFULLY!!! @Joeri, complex web apps via Ext JS is my daily work. Big differences between IE8 and 6 via Ext? Nothing compared with the feeling you can have via Chrome, for example, or others. The reason IE is reasonably responsive in IE as well is that Ext JS team put a lot of effort to make IE sufficiently fast. Still, when things become more complicated and you use complex personal gadgets/logic inside some Ext floating window, take the chronometer and check he difference: Internet Explorer is slow!

The browser for today web tasks? Just have a ride in TaskSpeed and see, even with a partially bugged document query selector how slow is, generally speaking, IE … and for general daily basis tasks.

Is version 8 better than 7 ? HOPEFULLY!!!

]]> By: Joeri http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274073 Joeri Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:38:14 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274073 @WebReflection Ahem. I've actually just spent 6 months building an ExtJS web app, developing on firefox 3 with regular testing on IE8 and chrome. I'm not saying there isn't a performance difference, just that it isn't this ground-breaking earth-shattering chasm that I keep hearing here. IE8 is "good enough" performance-wise from what I've seen from it. Maybe it's just due to the sort of app I've been building (iGoogle-style gadget portal). We'll see what my experience is when I move over our room reservation system to ExtJS. I think there's a lot of merit to your point about canvas and html5. I wouldn't place that under the label "standards support", because those aren't actually standards yet, but for me that belongs with "promoting the web of tomorrow". With IE8, microsoft made, in my opinion, a decent browser for what's already out there, the web of today. The question is what they do from here on out with IE9 to deliver the web of tomorrow. What the web needs to go there, in my opinion, is the capability to run complex apps offline, with local data, and with local graphics support. This implies support for faster multi-threaded javascript, canvas, offline mode and advanced client-side (sql) storage. That's the featurelist I expect in IE9 if microsoft is as serious about the open web as they claim to be. Fat chance of that happening though. My gut tells me they're just going to bet heavily on silverlight and keep holding back the open web. @WebReflection
Ahem. I’ve actually just spent 6 months building an ExtJS web app, developing on firefox 3 with regular testing on IE8 and chrome. I’m not saying there isn’t a performance difference, just that it isn’t this ground-breaking earth-shattering chasm that I keep hearing here. IE8 is “good enough” performance-wise from what I’ve seen from it. Maybe it’s just due to the sort of app I’ve been building (iGoogle-style gadget portal). We’ll see what my experience is when I move over our room reservation system to ExtJS.

I think there’s a lot of merit to your point about canvas and html5. I wouldn’t place that under the label “standards support”, because those aren’t actually standards yet, but for me that belongs with “promoting the web of tomorrow”. With IE8, microsoft made, in my opinion, a decent browser for what’s already out there, the web of today. The question is what they do from here on out with IE9 to deliver the web of tomorrow. What the web needs to go there, in my opinion, is the capability to run complex apps offline, with local data, and with local graphics support. This implies support for faster multi-threaded javascript, canvas, offline mode and advanced client-side (sql) storage. That’s the featurelist I expect in IE9 if microsoft is as serious about the open web as they claim to be. Fat chance of that happening though. My gut tells me they’re just going to bet heavily on silverlight and keep holding back the open web.

]]> By: Bub http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274066 Bub Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:17:05 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274066 MS: Drop support for IE 6 and 7 now. When you do that, I can tell my clients that I can't support it either. It gives me the ammunition I need to finally write web apps without tearing my hair out and wasting countless hours making your old crap work. At that point, I'll evaluate IE 8. Until then, "IE" is IE 6, 7 and 8 in my (real) life. MS: Drop support for IE 6 and 7 now.

When you do that, I can tell my clients that I can’t support it either. It gives me the ammunition I need to finally write web apps without tearing my hair out and wasting countless hours making your old crap work. At that point, I’ll evaluate IE 8. Until then, “IE” is IE 6, 7 and 8 in my (real) life.

]]> By: randomrandom http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274050 randomrandom Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:47:54 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274050 God told Microsoft: - Microsoft, roll over and die! But, Microsoft, having its head so far down its ass, heard: - Microsoft, roll over and lie! And so it did. God told Microsoft:

- Microsoft, roll over and die!

But, Microsoft, having its head so far down its ass, heard:

- Microsoft, roll over and lie!

And so it did.

]]> By: andysky http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274049 andysky Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:39:22 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274049 I remember this Microsoft video with a Microsoft Evangelist interviewing a Microsoft Developer at his desk. At a certain point this Microsoft Evangelist sees Firefox on the screen: ------ Microsoft Evangelist [seemingly nervous]: What's that?! Internet Explorer with a new logo? Then this Microsoft Evangelist laughs of his own joke. The Microsoft Developer doesn't laugh at all and just says... Microsoft Developer: This is Firefox ------ This moment, to me, told me more about Microsoft that a thousand magazine articles. BTW, a few months later, that developer was no longer at Microsoft. I remember this Microsoft video with a Microsoft Evangelist interviewing a Microsoft Developer at his desk. At a certain point this Microsoft Evangelist sees Firefox on the screen:
——
Microsoft Evangelist [seemingly nervous]: What’s that?! Internet Explorer with a new logo?

Then this Microsoft Evangelist laughs of his own joke.

The Microsoft Developer doesn’t laugh at all and just says…

Microsoft Developer: This is Firefox
——

This moment, to me, told me more about Microsoft that a thousand magazine articles.

BTW, a few months later, that developer was no longer at Microsoft.

]]> By: randomrandom http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274048 randomrandom Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:12:39 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274048 @ryshaw: "so good job microsoft, you did, in fact, leapfrog IE 6 and IE 7" I like that image. Microsoft finally admits being the frog, where the others are princes. I guess Microsoft ain't a total lier after all, eh? @ryshaw: “so good job microsoft, you did, in fact, leapfrog IE 6 and IE 7″

I like that image. Microsoft finally admits being the frog, where the others are princes.

I guess Microsoft ain’t a total lier after all, eh?

]]> By: ryshaw http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274047 ryshaw Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:06:47 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274047 Thats funny, I just went to that microsoft "mythbusting" page and it had this quote up at the top under here's the buzz: "This latest version of Microsoft's browser leapfrogs its closest competition"... Gralla, Computer World and sadly that quote is exactly right, because IE8 is closer to IE7 (or even IE 6) than firefox, safari, or chrome. That is truly how far behind IE 8 is, it isnt even in the same ballpark as the other A-grade brosers so its "closest competition" are the weaklings IE 6 and IE 7. so good job microsoft, you did, in fact, leapfrog IE 6 and IE 7 Thats funny, I just went to that microsoft “mythbusting” page and it had this quote up at the top under here’s the buzz:

“This latest version of Microsoft’s browser leapfrogs its closest competition”… Gralla, Computer World

and sadly that quote is exactly right, because IE8 is closer to IE7 (or even IE 6) than firefox, safari, or chrome. That is truly how far behind IE 8 is, it isnt even in the same ballpark as the other A-grade brosers so its “closest competition” are the weaklings IE 6 and IE 7.

so good job microsoft, you did, in fact, leapfrog IE 6 and IE 7

]]> By: randomrandom http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274046 randomrandom Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:57:04 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274046 My professional opinion is that Microsoft is dead. They just don't know it yet. My professional opinion is that Microsoft is dead.

They just don’t know it yet.

]]> By: andysky http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274045 andysky Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:54:22 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274045 Hmm, let's see... If, according to Microsoft, Firefox is "old", then, what's Internet Explorer? Dead? ;) Hmm, let’s see… If, according to Microsoft, Firefox is “old”, then, what’s Internet Explorer? Dead?
;)

]]> By: Darkimmortal http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274043 Darkimmortal Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:36:34 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274043 Name a browser that can scroll as smoothly as IE6. (Other IE versions went downhill scrolling-wise and Firefox doesn't count on account of the fixed background bug). This and lack of various addons are the only things keeping me off Chrome atm. Name a browser that can scroll as smoothly as IE6. (Other IE versions went downhill scrolling-wise and Firefox doesn’t count on account of the fixed background bug).

This and lack of various addons are the only things keeping me off Chrome atm.

]]> By: pendensproditor http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274041 pendensproditor Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:33:09 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274041 Just more of Microsoft's total lack of self-awareness. Just more of Microsoft’s total lack of self-awareness.

]]> By: Nosredna http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274039 Nosredna Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:29:10 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274039 I think dissing IE8 on JavaScript performance is completely valid. I think dissing them on the lack of Canvas is completely valid. They are a huge company and they should be able to keep up with their competitors. Why are their competitors (even little Opera) able to beat them on so many fronts? On multiple platforms? I think it's because what Microsoft cares about is Silverlight, not the browser. "But many of the claims are comparing older versions of Internet Explorer to competitors' newest releases." And that's the problem. There are still a lot of people running IE6. Who is running an Opera or Firefox or Safari or Chrome of that vintage? Chrome autoupdates. If only IE did. What does it matter if IE8 is great if we have to code to IE6? I think dissing IE8 on JavaScript performance is completely valid. I think dissing them on the lack of Canvas is completely valid. They are a huge company and they should be able to keep up with their competitors. Why are their competitors (even little Opera) able to beat them on so many fronts? On multiple platforms? I think it’s because what Microsoft cares about is Silverlight, not the browser.

“But many of the claims are comparing older versions of Internet Explorer to competitors’ newest releases.”

And that’s the problem. There are still a lot of people running IE6. Who is running an Opera or Firefox or Safari or Chrome of that vintage? Chrome autoupdates. If only IE did. What does it matter if IE8 is great if we have to code to IE6?

]]> By: WebReflection http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274038 WebReflection Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:18:22 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274038 @Joeri, a page that takes almost the same time and once loaded its responsiveness is 5 to 50 times slower than any other browser is more than significant. If you leave in 90s where JS was only that "unknown language used only for some form" I think you should update your self up to 2009, where again we are all stuck because of lacks caused by Internet Explorer. Their blog is talking only about accelerators, and JSON was a truly simple thing to implement in core ... I mean, there is already a parser working there, it was not that big effort, wasn't it? defineProperty is partially useless because not compatible with every object, just DOM nodes and Window ( better than nothing ). Tell people that IE8 is the best browser out there is a lie. Underline CSS 2.1 while WebKit and others are moving forward with 3 plus personal proposal, means IE 8 is again behind the scene. Avoid canvas, HTML 5 elements will block us for dunno how many other years, unless we do not fall back. Sure, the best bench ever is the load speed, cause a millisecond means a lot, as we click a page each millisecond, rather than enjoy an advanced website for minutes/hours, right? You should look intensive application via GWT, Ext JS, YUI, and compare their responsiveness with this fantastic IE8, the first thing you'll do as developer is to swear against a lot of saints. "Face The Reality", rather than "Get The Facts" with "kiddish, gne gne style" blames, IMHO. @Joeri, a page that takes almost the same time and once loaded its responsiveness is 5 to 50 times slower than any other browser is more than significant. If you leave in 90s where JS was only that “unknown language used only for some form” I think you should update your self up to 2009, where again we are all stuck because of lacks caused by Internet Explorer. Their blog is talking only about accelerators, and JSON was a truly simple thing to implement in core … I mean, there is already a parser working there, it was not that big effort, wasn’t it? defineProperty is partially useless because not compatible with every object, just DOM nodes and Window ( better than nothing ). Tell people that IE8 is the best browser out there is a lie. Underline CSS 2.1 while WebKit and others are moving forward with 3 plus personal proposal, means IE 8 is again behind the scene. Avoid canvas, HTML 5 elements will block us for dunno how many other years, unless we do not fall back. Sure, the best bench ever is the load speed, cause a millisecond means a lot, as we click a page each millisecond, rather than enjoy an advanced website for minutes/hours, right? You should look intensive application via GWT, Ext JS, YUI, and compare their responsiveness with this fantastic IE8, the first thing you’ll do as developer is to swear against a lot of saints. “Face The Reality”, rather than “Get The Facts” with “kiddish, gne gne style” blames, IMHO.

]]> By: sixtyseconds http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274037 sixtyseconds Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:10:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274037 @Joerie How many years have we been waiting for CSS 2.1 support in IE? Good comment about the DOM layout improvements though. Erm...doesn't that involve working on w3c spec applications? Isn't that the problem we had with CSS 2.1 support? I wonder, if MS were to focus on that, how long it will take for the next IE, and how far ahead the rest of the market will be... @Joerie

How many years have we been waiting for CSS 2.1 support in IE? Good comment about the DOM layout improvements though. Erm…doesn’t that involve working on w3c spec applications? Isn’t that the problem we had with CSS 2.1 support?

I wonder, if MS were to focus on that, how long it will take for the next IE, and how far ahead the rest of the market will be…

]]> By: Joeri http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274036 Joeri Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:32:35 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274036 I wasn't making a statement about IE8 in general, just that dissing them on performance based on javascript performance is not a fair point to make. And also that the intense focus on javascript performance in the web dev community is detrimental to the overall performance story, because if we could get browser makers to put that same effort in DOM layout improvements as they do in their javascript engines, we would get much more bang for our buck. By the way, Thomas, if I can play advocate of the devil some more, I might mention how tab process isolation improves security and stability (a feature firefox doesn't have), and how the CSS 2.1 implementation of IE8 has unparalleled compliance, easily beating every other browser out there. ... But now I'm just having fun making you huff and puff :) I wasn’t making a statement about IE8 in general, just that dissing them on performance based on javascript performance is not a fair point to make. And also that the intense focus on javascript performance in the web dev community is detrimental to the overall performance story, because if we could get browser makers to put that same effort in DOM layout improvements as they do in their javascript engines, we would get much more bang for our buck.

By the way, Thomas, if I can play advocate of the devil some more, I might mention how tab process isolation improves security and stability (a feature firefox doesn’t have), and how the CSS 2.1 implementation of IE8 has unparalleled compliance, easily beating every other browser out there. … But now I’m just having fun making you huff and puff :)

]]> By: ThomasHansen http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274033 ThomasHansen Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:57:11 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274033 @Joeri Your comment is kind of like saying we should use steam-engines in trains today because they are less prune to needing repairs because the parts are larger and less likely to fall apart because trains runs so much more slow ... @Joeri
Your comment is kind of like saying we should use steam-engines in trains today because they are less prune to needing repairs because the parts are larger and less likely to fall apart because trains runs so much more slow …

]]> By: ThomasHansen http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274032 ThomasHansen Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:55:08 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274032 @Joeri Yup, probably true. Though is 99 out of a 100 metrics IE stinks so badly that it seriously should have been completely buried and laid to permanent rest in peace... . This is just ONE metric, we could also have talked about e.g. * W3C compatibility * Stability * Openness in platform * Lock-in (and lack of therein) * Security * ActiveX * Modularity etc, etc, etc... . IE8 was a *decent* browser, it still doesn't hide the fact that it's still several orders of magnitudes number of paradigms behind *ALL OTHER BROWSERS* in this world...! . So your statement isn't just "unfair", it's also blatantly out righteous *DANGEROUS*...! . Remember you *DO* run the risk of having someone believe you... :| @Joeri
Yup, probably true. Though is 99 out of a 100 metrics IE stinks so badly that it seriously should have been completely buried and laid to permanent rest in peace…
.
This is just ONE metric, we could also have talked about e.g.
* W3C compatibility
* Stability
* Openness in platform
* Lock-in (and lack of therein)
* Security
* ActiveX
* Modularity
etc, etc, etc…
.
IE8 was a *decent* browser, it still doesn’t hide the fact that it’s still several orders of magnitudes number of paradigms behind *ALL OTHER BROWSERS* in this world…!
.
So your statement isn’t just “unfair”, it’s also blatantly out righteous *DANGEROUS*…!
.
Remember you *DO* run the risk of having someone believe you… :|

]]> By: kanduvisla http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274030 kanduvisla Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:47:00 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274030 It looks like they modified the site since they're not blaming me anymore for using 'old dull firefox'. I think more people have pointed the creators of the site of their 'professional approach' of this action. It looks like they modified the site since they’re not blaming me anymore for using ‘old dull firefox’. I think more people have pointed the creators of the site of their ‘professional approach’ of this action.

]]> By: SchizoDuckie http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274028 SchizoDuckie Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:25:07 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274028 oh yeah, also note: http://istengrandburiedhere.com/ oh yeah, also note:

http://istengrandburiedhere.com/

]]> By: SchizoDuckie http://ajaxian.com/archives/get-the-facts-from-microsoft-marketing/comment-page-1#comment-274027 SchizoDuckie Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:23:24 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=6977#comment-274027 Damn. I got back from my holliday just in time to have a great laugh over this. The get the 'facts' page proves that Microsoft still has *no* *clue* whatsoever as to what IQ their users have and how far it will backfire on them. This story really needs submission to Digg... Damn. I got back from my holliday just in time to have a great laugh over this.

The get the ‘facts’ page proves that Microsoft still has *no* *clue* whatsoever as to what IQ their users have and how far it will backfire on them.

This story really needs submission to Digg…

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