Comments on: Google Docs and Spreadsheets Team: Web native matters http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 17 May 2012 07:43:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Robert Buffone http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-216278 Robert Buffone Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:45:30 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-216278 “Why is Ajax a better fit for some apps than Flash?” Building applications are all about identifying requirements, skill sets of the team, licensing, etc... For any single application, given the right team and no licensing issues; both flash and Ajax would be a reasonable solutions. Issues tend to arise as teams look to build more than one application (Typical scenario in an Enterprise or SI) or revise the applications over time to meet the needs of new requirements (Typical scenario in all applications). So how do you accommodate this? By using a platform that is client-side VM independent. Flash tries to be a VM, similar to .NET, Java and the Browser. Flash has a place in the Application Stack. You just shouldn’t limit technologies decisions to such a binary choice, Flash or Ajax. Look at Google Analytics, the charting is flash. Would it be wise to replace the flash charting with pure Ajax charting? Probably not, at least yet, and the flash charts are awesome. But as a single page Flex application, that wouldn’t strike the right balance either. Providing a platform that allows developers to build applications that can be deployed in any client-side technology removes the need to choose, and leaves the ability leverage any each where appropriate. What if Adobe fully opened up their format? Openness has several aspects: the platform, tooling and community involvement. Even before Java was open-sourced it had the JCP to allow contributions, Flash does not and Java allowed for external tools in the development of applications, Flash does not. Coming out and saying we open-source would be valuable but wouldn’t change anything, it still wouldn’t be native. “Why is Ajax a better fit for some apps than Flash?”

Building applications are all about identifying requirements, skill sets of the team, licensing, etc… For any single application, given the right team and no licensing issues; both flash and Ajax would be a reasonable solutions. Issues tend to arise as teams look to build more than one application (Typical scenario in an Enterprise or SI) or revise the applications over time to meet the needs of new requirements (Typical scenario in all applications).

So how do you accommodate this?

By using a platform that is client-side VM independent. Flash tries to be a VM, similar to .NET, Java and the Browser. Flash has a place in the Application Stack. You just shouldn’t limit technologies decisions to such a binary choice, Flash or Ajax. Look at Google Analytics, the charting is flash. Would it be wise to replace the flash charting with pure Ajax charting? Probably not, at least yet, and the flash charts are awesome. But as a single page Flex application, that wouldn’t strike the right balance either.

Providing a platform that allows developers to build applications that can be deployed in any client-side technology removes the need to choose, and leaves the ability leverage any each where appropriate.

What if Adobe fully opened up their format?

Openness has several aspects: the platform, tooling and community involvement. Even before Java was open-sourced it had the JCP to allow contributions, Flash does not and Java allowed for external tools in the development of applications, Flash does not. Coming out and saying we open-source would be valuable but wouldn’t change anything, it still wouldn’t be native.

]]> By: Joeri http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-214601 Joeri Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:26:51 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-214601 You don't have to buy the flash development tools if you don't want to. You can use open source environments like flashdevelop (or if you're on another platform than windows, mtasc + swfmill + eclipse), combined with one of the open source GUI toolkits, like aswing (a flash reimplementation of java swing). Osflash.org has a long list of replacement tools for various elements of the flash development pipeline. Admittedly, the flash IDE is more user-friendly, but that's what makes it worth paying for it. You don’t have to buy the flash development tools if you don’t want to. You can use open source environments like flashdevelop (or if you’re on another platform than windows, mtasc + swfmill + eclipse), combined with one of the open source GUI toolkits, like aswing (a flash reimplementation of java swing). Osflash.org has a long list of replacement tools for various elements of the flash development pipeline.

Admittedly, the flash IDE is more user-friendly, but that’s what makes it worth paying for it.

]]> By: Sergey Kim http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-214561 Sergey Kim Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:58:20 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-214561 I agree with Arwolff, the coparison between Ajax and Flash is incorrect. We just need to specify which technology is better for one part of web apps, and which for another. Then, we will make gains from both of them. I agree with Arwolff, the coparison between Ajax and Flash is incorrect. We just need to specify which technology is better for one part of web apps, and which for another. Then, we will make gains from both of them.

]]> By: John Burton http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-214445 John Burton Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:42:17 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-214445 I'd love to use flash where appropriate and ajax/html for the rest. But the flash delopment tools cost at least £500 and I'm not spending that for non-commercial sites. So flash it not possible anyway. I’d love to use flash where appropriate and ajax/html for the rest. But the flash delopment tools cost at least £500 and I’m not spending that for non-commercial sites. So flash it not possible anyway.

]]> By: John Dowdell http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213941 John Dowdell Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:28:59 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213941 <em>"If you were asked “why is Ajax a better fit for some apps than Flash?” what would you say?</em> Probably something like "Because some browser-based applications don't have high development costs and only need to refresh text and images from the server." Does that seem good to you? jd/adobe “If you were asked “why is Ajax a better fit for some apps than Flash?” what would you say?

Probably something like “Because some browser-based applications don’t have high development costs and only need to refresh text and images from the server.” Does that seem good to you?

jd/adobe

]]> By: Robert Schmelzer http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213725 Robert Schmelzer Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:21:41 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213725 You have to make differentiate between the type of application. A lot of internet applications are in fact built for intranet use to solve deployment and upgrade issues. Therefore it make quite sense to have them as similar to desktop apps as possible. Real internet applications addresed to end users should keep the web native feeling. This would also follow the usability guideline from Jakob Nielson who says, that apps should also work the way the users are expecting it to work. You have to make differentiate between the type of application. A lot of internet applications are in fact built for intranet use to solve deployment and upgrade issues. Therefore it make quite sense to have them as similar to desktop apps as possible. Real internet applications addresed to end users should keep the web native feeling. This would also follow the usability guideline from Jakob Nielson who says, that apps should also work the way the users are expecting it to work.

]]> By: Brad Neuberg http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213389 Brad Neuberg Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:46:38 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213389 I think Flash vs. Ajax is a false dichotomy that will fade over time. Some Ajax apps will use Flash for some features, such as movies, sounds, and local storage; Flash will continue to morph into a kind of Ajax/DHTML, such as Flash's old Actionscript 1.0 being dropped in favor of JavaScript. Brad I think Flash vs. Ajax is a false dichotomy that will fade over time. Some Ajax apps will use Flash for some features, such as movies, sounds, and local storage; Flash will continue to morph into a kind of Ajax/DHTML, such as Flash’s old Actionscript 1.0 being dropped in favor of JavaScript.

Brad

]]> By: ARWolff http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213348 ARWolff Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:09:16 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213348 When architected & implemented correctly, Web-native apps can be hugely more accessible and adaptable to mobile applications than can a graphic-centric approach such as Flash. Sure, the majority of Ajax apps aren't unobtrusive and don't degrade gracefully, but only due to the developers' limited vision and/or discipline. I can take the time to build an Ajax system on XHTML that lets a user navigate around without JavaScript, if necessary; Flash just won't do that. When architected & implemented correctly, Web-native apps can be hugely more accessible and adaptable to mobile applications than can a graphic-centric approach such as Flash. Sure, the majority of Ajax apps aren’t unobtrusive and don’t degrade gracefully, but only due to the developers’ limited vision and/or discipline. I can take the time to build an Ajax system on XHTML that lets a user navigate around without JavaScript, if necessary; Flash just won’t do that.

]]> By: Scott Schiller http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213299 Scott Schiller Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:25:33 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213299 I'm starting to see some of the value (or lack thereof regarding information) in using Flash for "applications" eg. e-mail and so on, online, where "openness" is not important - But when it comes to providing valuable, searchable, indexable information the way Tim Berners-Lee envisioned it, nothing currently beats HTML. "The web is not a movie." ;) If Flash were to become more open and indexable, and HTML or a similar XML-based language was used for content in movies (which were also text based and human-readable, not binaries), that could be quite valuable. Now while less "grokable" however, the current compilation aspect to SWFs (especially the forthcoming Flex 2 etc.) differentiates it from HTML in other good ways - ie. performance, right? I’m starting to see some of the value (or lack thereof regarding information) in using Flash for “applications” eg. e-mail and so on, online, where “openness” is not important – But when it comes to providing valuable, searchable, indexable information the way Tim Berners-Lee envisioned it, nothing currently beats HTML. “The web is not a movie.” ;)

If Flash were to become more open and indexable, and HTML or a similar XML-based language was used for content in movies (which were also text based and human-readable, not binaries), that could be quite valuable. Now while less “grokable” however, the current compilation aspect to SWFs (especially the forthcoming Flex 2 etc.) differentiates it from HTML in other good ways – ie. performance, right?

]]> By: Paul M. Watson http://ajaxian.com/archives/google-docs-and-spreadsheets-team-web-native-matters/comment-page-1#comment-213287 Paul M. Watson Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:17:54 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=1858#comment-213287 IMO web native is hugely important. Opening Flash wouldn't help much. IMO web native is hugely important. Opening Flash wouldn’t help much.

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