Comments on: How Adobe can overcome the issues around open sourcing the Flash Player http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 17 May 2012 07:43:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: terry xu http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249517 terry xu Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:50:21 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249517 even it goes opensource, there is still a long way to go before a opensource IDE to be developed first, by which time Silverlight might have caught up. But, sure! I found little difficulty to pick up AS quickly with some experience of JS. even it goes opensource, there is still a long way to go before a opensource IDE to be developed first, by which time Silverlight might have caught up.

But, sure! I found little difficulty to pick up AS quickly with some experience of JS.

]]> By: Venkat http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249433 Venkat Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:14:31 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249433 I feel, OpenSourcing may be bad idea. I like to see better 2D/3D premitive graphics support in MXML. They must match XAML to be compititive. I feel, OpenSourcing may be bad idea. I like to see better 2D/3D premitive graphics support in MXML. They must match XAML to be compititive.

]]> By: Ray http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249393 Ray Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:31:58 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249393 Re: “I often want Google to be able to find the content.” I would use flex (running on flash) for RIA "business apps", where I do NOT want Google to index, and actually there is no content to index. Such apps will need user authentication and Google can not get to them Re: “I often want Google to be able to find the content.”
I would use flex (running on flash) for RIA “business apps”, where I do NOT want Google to index, and actually there is no content to index. Such apps will need user authentication and Google can not get to them

]]> By: Theo http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249371 Theo Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:04:53 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249371 To say that it would be good if Google could index SWF-files is more or less the same as to say that it would be good if Google Desktop could index .exe-files. It's very rarely that it would make any sense. SWF is mostly logic and has no structure in the sense that a HTML page does. Without executing it you have no way of knowing what content is loaded at runtime, or which header belongs to which text (if they are in different text fields, that is), etc. Actually, this applies to Ajax-applications too. As Geoff pointed out above, the appropriate solution is progressive enhancement. It's not very hard and somthing that Ajax-applications should do too. To say that it would be good if Google could index SWF-files is more or less the same as to say that it would be good if Google Desktop could index .exe-files. It’s very rarely that it would make any sense.

SWF is mostly logic and has no structure in the sense that a HTML page does. Without executing it you have no way of knowing what content is loaded at runtime, or which header belongs to which text (if they are in different text fields, that is), etc. Actually, this applies to Ajax-applications too.

As Geoff pointed out above, the appropriate solution is progressive enhancement. It’s not very hard and somthing that Ajax-applications should do too.

]]> By: Joeri http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249329 Joeri Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:02:43 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249329 I disagree that you can write the animations and applications that flash is used for in JS / AJAX just as well. I've written apps in both environments, and if you use a fully flash toolchain instead of a fully ajax toolchain, development of web apps and design of animations / graphics is an order of magnitude easier. The AJAX toolkits just have not reached the level of performance or ease of use that you have in the flash / flex environment. When you look at the cost of development, flash wins a lot of the time. Try out flex builder by downloading it from adobe's site and run through some flex web app tutorials, you'll see what I mean about how easy it is to develop web apps in it. Let's also not forget flash's core strength: vector graphics. Canvas, VML and SVG show promise, but when you try to do more than a proof of concept, you quickly run into cross-browser issues and performance problems. I disagree that you can write the animations and applications that flash is used for in JS / AJAX just as well. I’ve written apps in both environments, and if you use a fully flash toolchain instead of a fully ajax toolchain, development of web apps and design of animations / graphics is an order of magnitude easier. The AJAX toolkits just have not reached the level of performance or ease of use that you have in the flash / flex environment. When you look at the cost of development, flash wins a lot of the time. Try out flex builder by downloading it from adobe’s site and run through some flex web app tutorials, you’ll see what I mean about how easy it is to develop web apps in it.

Let’s also not forget flash’s core strength: vector graphics. Canvas, VML and SVG show promise, but when you try to do more than a proof of concept, you quickly run into cross-browser issues and performance problems.

]]> By: Martin http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249327 Martin Thu, 12 Apr 2007 05:12:07 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249327 I have Flash disabled on my primary browser on my Mac and use my secondary for Youtube et al. It is not that I dislike Flash, it is that whenever a website uses some flash, the CPU really gets some work, the fans turn up and it gets loud and sluggish. Even when the flash does not look like it does anything demanding. This is a prime reason why I prefer a Ajax application to a flash one. I have Flash disabled on my primary browser on my Mac and use my secondary for Youtube et al.

It is not that I dislike Flash, it is that whenever a website uses some flash, the CPU really gets some work, the fans turn up and it gets loud and sluggish. Even when the flash does not look like it does anything demanding.

This is a prime reason why I prefer a Ajax application to a flash one.

]]> By: John Dowdell http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249322 John Dowdell Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:43:42 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249322 Robert Buffone wrote, above: <em>"Adobe had the opportunity to show their commitment to openness in the Apollo product. But instead they have locked down the runtime to not allow any plug-ins except Flash and PDF. What happens if I want to build an application that has a video player or than flash, or reuse Java components that I have developed?"</em> Sorry, you're right -- Apollo doesn't particularly add new abilities to other video architectures, other virtual machines. They still work as before, but the Apollo docs on Adobe Labs don't have much to say about such things, true. But if you're already creating in-browser applications with JavaScript or Flash, then Apollo can help you reach beyond-the-desktop too. That's its goal. If this helps you in your work today, then great. If not, then maybe we'll work together tomorrow instead. jd/adobe Robert Buffone wrote, above: “Adobe had the opportunity to show their commitment to openness in the Apollo product. But instead they have locked down the runtime to not allow any plug-ins except Flash and PDF. What happens if I want to build an application that has a video player or than flash, or reuse Java components that I have developed?”

Sorry, you’re right — Apollo doesn’t particularly add new abilities to other video architectures, other virtual machines. They still work as before, but the Apollo docs on Adobe Labs don’t have much to say about such things, true.

But if you’re already creating in-browser applications with JavaScript or Flash, then Apollo can help you reach beyond-the-desktop too. That’s its goal.

If this helps you in your work today, then great. If not, then maybe we’ll work together tomorrow instead.

jd/adobe

]]> By: Geoff http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249316 Geoff Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:42:29 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249316 Re: "I often want Google to be able to find the content." There's a popular technique that I've talked about before on my blog - it involves using progressive enhancement with your swf files to allow search engines to index the content. Check it out: http://blog.deconcept.com/2006/03/13/modern-approach-flash-seo/ Re: “I often want Google to be able to find the content.”

There’s a popular technique that I’ve talked about before on my blog – it involves using progressive enhancement with your swf files to allow search engines to index the content. Check it out:

http://blog.deconcept.com/2006/03/13/modern-approach-flash-seo/

]]> By: Matt Nuzum http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249310 Matt Nuzum Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:36:32 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249310 Even if Adobe open sources the flash player, the oss community may not embrace it. Flash has been abused for so long that many technical enthusiasts disable it. It solves one problem, and that is the cross platform presentation of video and audio. It does that quite nicely. That may be enough to get the OSS community to pick it up. I personally find the flash player on Linux to be very buggy and it frequently crashes my browser. Therefore if there was an OSS version and the community adopted it and improved it, I would probably use it. Now that we can do animation and xhr in pure js, Adobe may feel like they're about to loose their market. If thats the case, it may be best to OSS it and gain the publicity and enthusiasm that would follow. If they don't feel pressured, I'd wait to see how the communities embrace Java with its OSS license. If the uptake on java is strong, and java sees a boost, then that could be a good sign for Flash. If java languishes after the oss release, I doubt Flash would fair better. Even if Adobe open sources the flash player, the oss community may not embrace it. Flash has been abused for so long that many technical enthusiasts disable it. It solves one problem, and that is the cross platform presentation of video and audio. It does that quite nicely.

That may be enough to get the OSS community to pick it up. I personally find the flash player on Linux to be very buggy and it frequently crashes my browser. Therefore if there was an OSS version and the community adopted it and improved it, I would probably use it.

Now that we can do animation and xhr in pure js, Adobe may feel like they’re about to loose their market. If thats the case, it may be best to OSS it and gain the publicity and enthusiasm that would follow. If they don’t feel pressured, I’d wait to see how the communities embrace Java with its OSS license. If the uptake on java is strong, and java sees a boost, then that could be a good sign for Flash. If java languishes after the oss release, I doubt Flash would fair better.

]]> By: Robert Buffone http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249307 Robert Buffone Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:43:23 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249307 What benefit would there to open sourcing Flash? The world already has three runtimes to build applications, HTML + JavaScript, Java, and the windows platform. Each one of these has been used to successfully build large scale applications, and has millions of developers in each of their respective communities. Adobe and before that Macromedia never built an open community around Flash. Java on the other hand has, whether people like Java or not the JCP process has produced numerous specifications that multiple vendors could use to build value for their companies and developers could learn to build value in themselves. Microsoft also has built community, however you want to say that accomplished this is not the point. -- Open sourcing Flash at this point, in my opinion would purely a Marketing ploy. Adobe had the opportunity to show their commitment to openness in the Apollo product. But instead they have locked down the runtime to not allow any plug-ins except Flash and PDF. What happens if I want to build an application that has a video player or than flash, or reuse Java components that I have developed? -- 80%-90% of applications that enterprises’ need to build can use Ajax to meet there requirements. The other 20% at this point should look to use Java or another technology over Flash. I just wrote up an article on this topic at http://rockstarapps.com/wordpress/?p=40 What benefit would there to open sourcing Flash? The world already has three runtimes to build applications, HTML + JavaScript, Java, and the windows platform. Each one of these has been used to successfully build large scale applications, and has millions of developers in each of their respective communities. Adobe and before that Macromedia never built an open community around Flash. Java on the other hand has, whether people like Java or not the JCP process has produced numerous specifications that multiple vendors could use to build value for their companies and developers could learn to build value in themselves. Microsoft also has built community, however you want to say that accomplished this is not the point.
–
Open sourcing Flash at this point, in my opinion would purely a Marketing ploy. Adobe had the opportunity to show their commitment to openness in the Apollo product. But instead they have locked down the runtime to not allow any plug-ins except Flash and PDF. What happens if I want to build an application that has a video player or than flash, or reuse Java components that I have developed?
–
80%-90% of applications that enterprises’ need to build can use Ajax to meet there requirements. The other 20% at this point should look to use Java or another technology over Flash. I just wrote up an article on this topic at http://rockstarapps.com/wordpress/?p=40

]]> By: Paul M. Watson http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249306 Paul M. Watson Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:31:19 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249306 No, open sourcing won't have much effect on me. It is the binary nature of the SWF that bugs me. I think a lot of the success of JavaScript, HTML and CSS is down to there textual natures. Easy to hack, easy to run, easy to play around with and quickly see changes. No, open sourcing won’t have much effect on me. It is the binary nature of the SWF that bugs me. I think a lot of the success of JavaScript, HTML and CSS is down to there textual natures. Easy to hack, easy to run, easy to play around with and quickly see changes.

]]> By: Stephen Beattie http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249301 Stephen Beattie Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:19:53 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249301 I can't ever see Adobe open-sourcing the Flash player. As long as they control the platform then they control the market. What's more I know there's a whole bunch of features people would want to chuck in straight away if it we're opened up such as hardware graphic acceleration, video codecs, proper SVG integration that would completely de-stabilise a product that works exceptionally well across platforms using a very small installer. A better product if Open-Sourced? I don't necessarily agree. More ad-hoc features and standards compliance alone do not guarantee a polished product. Adobe have product managers to utlimately manage user experiences by saying NO rather than YES by considering the user-base, competing products, current technology and designer/developer wishes. I'm sure there are keen, talented programmers in the Open Source arena but maybe the Flash Player is best left to Adobe. How about developing for xinf (based on Neko/Haxe) instead. There's scope to shape this runtime into something to parallel Flash using open-source projects - http://xinf.org, http://haxe.org. I for one have been really happy with Macromedia's and Adobe's management of Flash and respect their attitude towards open-source and keeping developers happy. Open-sourcing Tamarin was an amazing gesture (can't wait to see how Mozilla implement this and I'm hoping for mod_tamarin for some cool server-side AS3 stuff to match mod_neko) and the Flex/Apollo SDKs are another free option for those not happy with the IDEs available. I can’t ever see Adobe open-sourcing the Flash player. As long as they control the platform then they control the market. What’s more I know there’s a whole bunch of features people would want to chuck in straight away if it we’re opened up such as hardware graphic acceleration, video codecs, proper SVG integration that would completely de-stabilise a product that works exceptionally well across platforms using a very small installer.

A better product if Open-Sourced? I don’t necessarily agree. More ad-hoc features and standards compliance alone do not guarantee a polished product. Adobe have product managers to utlimately manage user experiences by saying NO rather than YES by considering the user-base, competing products, current technology and designer/developer wishes.

I’m sure there are keen, talented programmers in the Open Source arena but maybe the Flash Player is best left to Adobe. How about developing for xinf (based on Neko/Haxe) instead. There’s scope to shape this runtime into something to parallel Flash using open-source projects – http://xinf.org, http://haxe.org.

I for one have been really happy with Macromedia’s and Adobe’s management of Flash and respect their attitude towards open-source and keeping developers happy. Open-sourcing Tamarin was an amazing gesture (can’t wait to see how Mozilla implement this and I’m hoping for mod_tamarin for some cool server-side AS3 stuff to match mod_neko) and the Flex/Apollo SDKs are another free option for those not happy with the IDEs available.

]]> By: comeon http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249298 comeon Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:59:44 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249298 @carmen - you represent less than 0.25% of the users out there. Get real or lost, which ever you like. @carmen – you represent less than 0.25% of the users out there. Get real or lost, which ever you like.

]]> By: James Ward http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249297 James Ward Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:45:12 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249297 Carmen, The solution on my blog doesn't use that method. It uses the NSPluginWrapper. Check it out and let me know if it works for you. -James Carmen,
The solution on my blog doesn’t use that method. It uses the NSPluginWrapper. Check it out and let me know if it works for you.

-James

]]> By: carmen http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249295 carmen Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:40:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249295 James: some of us dont want to install a 32bit Chroot or multilib environment, and lose 3 gbs of disk space, just to watch dumb web videos forwarded from friends. open sourcing flash would basically mean we have another browser, minus a bit of HTML rendering. adobe already gave Tamarin away anyways, presumably so they dont have to maintain a parallel JS engine forever James: some of us dont want to install a 32bit Chroot or multilib environment, and lose 3 gbs of disk space, just to watch dumb web videos forwarded from friends. open sourcing flash would basically mean we have another browser, minus a bit of HTML rendering. adobe already gave Tamarin away anyways, presumably so they dont have to maintain a parallel JS engine forever

]]> By: ix http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249294 ix Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:38:42 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249294 thats, canvas, and video elements. the writing is really on the wall for Adobe, i dont think they can really differentiate with Apollo either, now that browsers are getting offline and local storage features, and CSS+HTML has proven to be fine for 99% of documents as compared to PDF too thats, canvas, and video elements. the writing is really on the wall for Adobe, i dont think they can really differentiate with Apollo either, now that browsers are getting offline and local storage features, and CSS+HTML has proven to be fine for 99% of documents as compared to PDF too

]]> By: James Ward http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249293 James Ward Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:38:30 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249293 Carmen, Flash 9 runs fine on Linux 32bit and 64bit: http://www.jamesward.org/wordpress/2006/12/06/flash-9-on-64bit-linux-in-2-commands/ I use Flash 9 on my 32bit Ubuntu desktop and my 64bit Gentoo desktop. No problems on either. Have you had problems? Dion, When you say "play nicer with the browser", I assume you mean text resizing (Ctrl++), Find in Page (Ctrl+F), etc. Right? What other things need to play nicer? -James Carmen,

Flash 9 runs fine on Linux 32bit and 64bit:
http://www.jamesward.org/wordpress/2006/12/06/flash-9-on-64bit-linux-in-2-commands/

I use Flash 9 on my 32bit Ubuntu desktop and my 64bit Gentoo desktop. No problems on either. Have you had problems?

Dion,

When you say “play nicer with the browser”, I assume you mean text resizing (Ctrl++), Find in Page (Ctrl+F), etc. Right? What other things need to play nicer?

-James

]]> By: ix http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249292 ix Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:37:36 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249292 theres a tremendous amount of overlap between flash and normal browser tech, especially now that almost everyone (and likely IE now that theyve joined the HTML5 WG) has , and the upcoming element. at that point, the only thing left is an IDE to generate javascript for animations and such.. im sure theres are several of these around, not sure theyre on the level of MX (or CS3 or whjatever its called now), but its not like MX is intuitive either theres a tremendous amount of overlap between flash and normal browser tech, especially now that almost everyone (and likely IE now that theyve joined the HTML5 WG) has , and the upcoming element.

at that point, the only thing left is an IDE to generate javascript for animations and such.. im sure theres are several of these around, not sure theyre on the level of MX (or CS3 or whjatever its called now), but its not like MX is intuitive either

]]> By: carmen http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249291 carmen Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:30:05 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249291 btw, does Gnash run youtube yet? btw, does Gnash run youtube yet?

]]> By: carmen http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player/comment-page-1#comment-249290 carmen Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:28:40 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-adobe-can-overcome-the-issues-around-open-sourcing-the-flash-player#comment-249290 Java has been running on 64bit chips more or less since their inception. flash pertty much just runs on 32bit windowds and mac...yawn. write once - run on crappy OSes only Java has been running on 64bit chips more or less since their inception. flash pertty much just runs on 32bit windowds and mac…yawn.

write once – run on crappy OSes only

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