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	<title>Comments on: How green is your Web site?</title>
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	<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site</link>
	<description>Cleaning up the web with Ajax</description>
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		<title>By: musicfreak</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261999</link>
		<dc:creator>musicfreak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261999</guid>
		<description>I agree with just about every post here: this is all a bunch of bullshit.

I mean, I totally agree that we should optimize our websites so as not to waste money and resources, but to use global warming as motivation? A couple servers sitting in an office will not affect global warming, and removing them will not stop it. I don&#039;t care how you do the math, stop and use some common sense for a secon. These little things don&#039;t matter. You aren&#039;t going to stop global warming, especially not with a website. You could stop using any kind of electricity for a year and it would do absolutely &lt;em&gt;nothing&lt;/em&gt;.

I personally believe the whole &quot;global warming&quot; commotion is crap. Even if we could stop it, we would have to tackle it on a national level, and even then, countries like China are emitting a lot more than the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with just about every post here: this is all a bunch of bullshit.</p>
<p>I mean, I totally agree that we should optimize our websites so as not to waste money and resources, but to use global warming as motivation? A couple servers sitting in an office will not affect global warming, and removing them will not stop it. I don&#8217;t care how you do the math, stop and use some common sense for a secon. These little things don&#8217;t matter. You aren&#8217;t going to stop global warming, especially not with a website. You could stop using any kind of electricity for a year and it would do absolutely <em>nothing</em>.</p>
<p>I personally believe the whole &#8220;global warming&#8221; commotion is crap. Even if we could stop it, we would have to tackle it on a national level, and even then, countries like China are emitting a lot more than the US.</p>
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		<title>By: mike08</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261967</link>
		<dc:creator>mike08</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261967</guid>
		<description>I recommend the book &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Cool-Skeptical-Environmentalists-Global-Warming/dp/0307266923&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cool It&lt;/a&gt; by BjÃ¸rn Lomborg. 
He does not deny global warming is real, or that it is man-made, but does argue that much of the hype and fervour about optimizing insignificant causes of pollution is wasted energy.

I would tend to think that optimizing websites (for carbon emissions reasons) has bugger all benefit to the environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend the book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cool-Skeptical-Environmentalists-Global-Warming/dp/0307266923" rel="nofollow">Cool It</a> by BjÃ¸rn Lomborg.<br />
He does not deny global warming is real, or that it is man-made, but does argue that much of the hype and fervour about optimizing insignificant causes of pollution is wasted energy.</p>
<p>I would tend to think that optimizing websites (for carbon emissions reasons) has bugger all benefit to the environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Foushee</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261964</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Foushee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261964</guid>
		<description>What a pant load.  Seriously, I thought we were going to turn a corner with all this nonsense about CO2 emissions and carbon footprints, but now this movement is targeting web design?  Even if I were to concede to the flawed logic that makes CO2 the ultimate scapegoat in global warming (which requires ignoring the lack of real data we have on water vapor and solar output) the assumed numbers posted above from the Wikipedia study only illustrates the absurdity of this idea.  1 ton of carbon over a year based on 100-200 Million visits a day would translate to about 10 pounds or less of CO2 each year to most web developers.  Trying to reduce a digital &quot;carbon overhead&quot; is a waste of time, energy (requires more time at your desk &quot;fixing&quot; this &quot;problem&quot;) and resources.  You&#039;d be better off not pulling the weeds in your garden and let them scrub the CO2 from the air your nasty server spits out each calendar year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a pant load.  Seriously, I thought we were going to turn a corner with all this nonsense about CO2 emissions and carbon footprints, but now this movement is targeting web design?  Even if I were to concede to the flawed logic that makes CO2 the ultimate scapegoat in global warming (which requires ignoring the lack of real data we have on water vapor and solar output) the assumed numbers posted above from the Wikipedia study only illustrates the absurdity of this idea.  1 ton of carbon over a year based on 100-200 Million visits a day would translate to about 10 pounds or less of CO2 each year to most web developers.  Trying to reduce a digital &#8220;carbon overhead&#8221; is a waste of time, energy (requires more time at your desk &#8220;fixing&#8221; this &#8220;problem&#8221;) and resources.  You&#8217;d be better off not pulling the weeds in your garden and let them scrub the CO2 from the air your nasty server spits out each calendar year.</p>
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		<title>By: TNO</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261950</link>
		<dc:creator>TNO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261950</guid>
		<description>Uh oh, I better switch to Telnet, I fear for my grandchildren..... Hell, I better throw that Xbox in the trash too and only play Text based games. 

I can see it now, type in www.google.com and search for something, you then get a pop up saying: &quot;You&#039;re request could not be completed, you have exceeded your daily emission rating for internet usage. Please try again after 24 hours&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh oh, I better switch to Telnet, I fear for my grandchildren&#8230;.. Hell, I better throw that Xbox in the trash too and only play Text based games. </p>
<p>I can see it now, type in <a href="http://www.google.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com</a> and search for something, you then get a pop up saying: &#8220;You&#8217;re request could not be completed, you have exceeded your daily emission rating for internet usage. Please try again after 24 hours&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Advertising</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261949</link>
		<dc:creator>Advertising</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261949</guid>
		<description>Oh No!! We&#039;re still developing cars that do +200mph - but our wesites have to be green.. whatever next!

(fascinating article though) :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh No!! We&#8217;re still developing cars that do +200mph &#8211; but our wesites have to be green.. whatever next!</p>
<p>(fascinating article though) :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261948</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261948</guid>
		<description>@tj: If you&#039;ve ever tried to quit smoking, that&#039;s how it starts.  And then if you stick to your guns, eventually you&#039;ll be at 0 cigarettes. (This is from personal experience, believe me.)  Every bit makes a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tj: If you&#8217;ve ever tried to quit smoking, that&#8217;s how it starts.  And then if you stick to your guns, eventually you&#8217;ll be at 0 cigarettes. (This is from personal experience, believe me.)  Every bit makes a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261947</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261947</guid>
		<description>@Chris:  uh, recycling has never paid me any money, and I&#039;ve always done it regardless of location or requirement.  So has my family, and so have most of my friends.
.
&quot;Less servers&quot; and &quot;Faster response times&quot; ? From the post example: &lt;blockquote&gt;Assume one web server can handle 100 of these requests/second, or 8.6M requests/day. thatâ€™s six web servers running full tilt year-round to handle this traffic.&lt;/blockquote&gt;So yes, being efficient (in this case with caching) results in less servers, faster response times, and therefore money savings -- lower bandwidth means fewer servers, and fewer servers means fewer admins.
.
As for your CO2 trolling, producing energy can pollute in many other ways: material costs, mining and erosion damage, nuclear waste... too many to list.  So it&#039;s always better to be efficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris:  uh, recycling has never paid me any money, and I&#8217;ve always done it regardless of location or requirement.  So has my family, and so have most of my friends.<br />
.<br />
&#8220;Less servers&#8221; and &#8220;Faster response times&#8221; ? From the post example:<br />
<blockquote>Assume one web server can handle 100 of these requests/second, or 8.6M requests/day. thatâ€™s six web servers running full tilt year-round to handle this traffic.</p></blockquote>
<p>So yes, being efficient (in this case with caching) results in less servers, faster response times, and therefore money savings &#8212; lower bandwidth means fewer servers, and fewer servers means fewer admins.<br />
.<br />
As for your CO2 trolling, producing energy can pollute in many other ways: material costs, mining and erosion damage, nuclear waste&#8230; too many to list.  So it&#8217;s always better to be efficient.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Phillips</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261944</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261944</guid>
		<description>
The primary driver for successful long term environmental change has never once been individual concern for the earth. Productivity efficiency is the only successful long term environmental change agent. Businesses like Anheuser Bush recycle because it saves them money, people recycle because it pays them money. Corporate Headquarters host natural outdoor campus&#039;, as opposed to seas of concrete, because it attracts and retains better workers etc...


Your proposal might be fruitful if it was framed as a more productive alternative (less servers, fewer server admins, less complexity, faster response times). 


That and CO2 being a pollutant is a farce.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The primary driver for successful long term environmental change has never once been individual concern for the earth. Productivity efficiency is the only successful long term environmental change agent. Businesses like Anheuser Bush recycle because it saves them money, people recycle because it pays them money. Corporate Headquarters host natural outdoor campus&#8217;, as opposed to seas of concrete, because it attracts and retains better workers etc&#8230;</p>
<p>Your proposal might be fruitful if it was framed as a more productive alternative (less servers, fewer server admins, less complexity, faster response times). </p>
<p>That and CO2 being a pollutant is a farce.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261943</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261943</guid>
		<description>sorry about the &lt;b&gt; tag guys, thought I caught them all.  Maybe one day, we&#039;ll have inline previews (hint)...&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry about the <b> tag guys, thought I caught them all.  Maybe one day, we&#8217;ll have inline previews (hint)&#8230;</b></p>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261933</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261933</guid>
		<description>&quot;Letâ€™s make all the backgrounds black too.&quot;

People have, seriously, advanced this idea before. Besides the fact that it&#039;s completely ridiculous, black backgrounds consume more energy on LCDs anyway.

People, environmentalism isn&#039;t about expending vast resources making basically immeasurable improvements to resource usage in a context of utterly unacceptable resource usage overall. Ending the rape of the planet is going to require huge, tremendous, world-changing systematic changes to the way humans operateâ€”not just in their own personal lifestyles, but culturally and economically. Most of the environmental problems we face are not lifestyle issues in the first place: they&#039;re either cultural (assumptions about scarcity and about things like limitless growth) or commercial.

In terms of measurable improvements, if we are to keep computers around at all, they&#039;d need to be manufactured using only already-mined (low-energy recycled) materials and be able to rely only on solar power. And we&#039;d have to find ways to reuse existing devices, rather than throwing them away or &quot;recycling&quot; them (which, basically, amounts to throwing them away in dumps in Asia instead of in the US).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Letâ€™s make all the backgrounds black too.&#8221;</p>
<p>People have, seriously, advanced this idea before. Besides the fact that it&#8217;s completely ridiculous, black backgrounds consume more energy on LCDs anyway.</p>
<p>People, environmentalism isn&#8217;t about expending vast resources making basically immeasurable improvements to resource usage in a context of utterly unacceptable resource usage overall. Ending the rape of the planet is going to require huge, tremendous, world-changing systematic changes to the way humans operateâ€”not just in their own personal lifestyles, but culturally and economically. Most of the environmental problems we face are not lifestyle issues in the first place: they&#8217;re either cultural (assumptions about scarcity and about things like limitless growth) or commercial.</p>
<p>In terms of measurable improvements, if we are to keep computers around at all, they&#8217;d need to be manufactured using only already-mined (low-energy recycled) materials and be able to rely only on solar power. And we&#8217;d have to find ways to reuse existing devices, rather than throwing them away or &#8220;recycling&#8221; them (which, basically, amounts to throwing them away in dumps in Asia instead of in the US).</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Leech</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261927</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Leech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261927</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s make all the backgrounds black too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s make all the backgrounds black too.</p>
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		<title>By: chrismarx</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261924</link>
		<dc:creator>chrismarx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261924</guid>
		<description>Well, regardless of the details, you can&#039;t argue against good web efficiency. Every little bit counts....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, regardless of the details, you can&#8217;t argue against good web efficiency. Every little bit counts&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Crighton</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/how-green-is-your-web-site/comment-page-1#comment-261922</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Crighton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/?p=3416#comment-261922</guid>
		<description>This is the most retarted idea I&#039;ve ever heard. 

To start with count the number of times the word &quot;Assume&quot; is used. 

Secondly the CPU cycles serving http requests are going to be dwarfed by the CPU of the database queries. 

Thirdly the web site is penalised for the number of users, they need to take the average number of http requests across all pages not multiply the front page by number of users.

Fourthly it assumes constant efficiency in terms of both power and CPU across wildly disparate hardware / and software platforms. Does windows / IIS on commodity hardware consume more power serving a http request than apache running on a pSeries? The answer is very probably.

Its obvious as the number of requests goes up, the number of servers required goes up and the carbon footprint / energy consumption will go up but there is no assumption that it will necesarily follow a strictly proportional relationship, and there is no way to even roughly determine the magnitude of power / carbon used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the most retarted idea I&#8217;ve ever heard. </p>
<p>To start with count the number of times the word &#8220;Assume&#8221; is used. </p>
<p>Secondly the CPU cycles serving http requests are going to be dwarfed by the CPU of the database queries. </p>
<p>Thirdly the web site is penalised for the number of users, they need to take the average number of http requests across all pages not multiply the front page by number of users.</p>
<p>Fourthly it assumes constant efficiency in terms of both power and CPU across wildly disparate hardware / and software platforms. Does windows / IIS on commodity hardware consume more power serving a http request than apache running on a pSeries? The answer is very probably.</p>
<p>Its obvious as the number of requests goes up, the number of servers required goes up and the carbon footprint / energy consumption will go up but there is no assumption that it will necesarily follow a strictly proportional relationship, and there is no way to even roughly determine the magnitude of power / carbon used.</p>
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