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	<title>Comments on: HTML 5: Positive Momentum</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum</link>
	<description>Cleaning up the web with Ajax</description>
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		<title>By: rainman</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250463</link>
		<dc:creator>rainman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 22:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250463</guid>
		<description>nea, that was really stupid and selfish comment :(

Stairs are actually really good example of this problem. Speaking of stairs we mean stairs and nothing else - no ramps - and this is the problem. Definition of stairs doesn&#039;t include ramps. We can build ramps (or elevators) at the same time, but wouldn&#039;t things be easier for widest possible group of people if stairs would automatically include ramps?  All the time there is more and more important information of basic things in internet and I believe we can&#039;t be so socially blind that we forget people with disabilities. It is good practise to use alternative paths when possible, but how many will do that extra effort if they don&#039;t have to? When you walk in the streets just count places where there are stairs, but now ramp or any other way to go in for people with wheelchair. Oh.. and don&#039;t forget that accessibility isn&#039;t just for people with disabilities!  Stairs example again - think people with baby buggy or luggage. Keeping accessibility in mind won&#039;t harm anyone, but helps lots of people.

PS. I&#039;m not native English speaker so I&#039;m sorry for any mistakes in the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nea, that was really stupid and selfish comment :(</p>
<p>Stairs are actually really good example of this problem. Speaking of stairs we mean stairs and nothing else &#8211; no ramps &#8211; and this is the problem. Definition of stairs doesn&#8217;t include ramps. We can build ramps (or elevators) at the same time, but wouldn&#8217;t things be easier for widest possible group of people if stairs would automatically include ramps?  All the time there is more and more important information of basic things in internet and I believe we can&#8217;t be so socially blind that we forget people with disabilities. It is good practise to use alternative paths when possible, but how many will do that extra effort if they don&#8217;t have to? When you walk in the streets just count places where there are stairs, but now ramp or any other way to go in for people with wheelchair. Oh.. and don&#8217;t forget that accessibility isn&#8217;t just for people with disabilities!  Stairs example again &#8211; think people with baby buggy or luggage. Keeping accessibility in mind won&#8217;t harm anyone, but helps lots of people.</p>
<p>PS. I&#8217;m not native English speaker so I&#8217;m sorry for any mistakes in the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Joeri</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250426</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 09:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250426</guid>
		<description>@Matt

I agree with you completely. In practice web applications that offer rich functionality (e.g. gmail) already have to offer alternative paths (&quot;basic mode&quot;) for the disabled. What the W3C needs to do is standardize the practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matt</p>
<p>I agree with you completely. In practice web applications that offer rich functionality (e.g. gmail) already have to offer alternative paths (&#8220;basic mode&#8221;) for the disabled. What the W3C needs to do is standardize the practice.</p>
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		<title>By: nicths</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250421</link>
		<dc:creator>nicths</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 21:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250421</guid>
		<description>Joe Larson: Width of an inline element? Yup, that&#039;s in css21. Set your elements to display: inline-block. Works in Opera, IE and a few others. According to bugzilla it&#039;s even fixed in ff now, after only 8 years. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9458</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Larson: Width of an inline element? Yup, that&#8217;s in css21. Set your elements to display: inline-block. Works in Opera, IE and a few others. According to bugzilla it&#8217;s even fixed in ff now, after only 8 years. <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9458" rel="nofollow">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9458</a></p>
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		<title>By: matt m</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250414</link>
		<dc:creator>matt m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 02:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250414</guid>
		<description>Ummm, until the word Microsoft starts appearing in these posts, nothing will change. Are they on board?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm, until the word Microsoft starts appearing in these posts, nothing will change. Are they on board?</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250409</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250409</guid>
		<description>I think there needs to be some balance between accessibility vs. realistic use case scenarios.  I am all for creating accessible sites (I take pain to do so wherever possible), but people are making very valid points.

I see a lot of parallels to a recent Penn &amp; Teller episode :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there needs to be some balance between accessibility vs. realistic use case scenarios.  I am all for creating accessible sites (I take pain to do so wherever possible), but people are making very valid points.</p>
<p>I see a lot of parallels to a recent Penn &amp; Teller episode :)</p>
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		<title>By: nea</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250404</link>
		<dc:creator>nea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 20:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250404</guid>
		<description>So, HTML5 shouldn&#039;t have , since blind people can&#039;t watch video? Ohh....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, HTML5 shouldn&#8217;t have , since blind people can&#8217;t watch video? Ohh&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250402</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 20:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250402</guid>
		<description>Laurent,

Staircases aren&#039;t very useful for folks in wheelchairs, and yet they&#039;re still in use everywhere. You seem to be implying that everything in the spec should be inherently accessible. I&#039;d argue that the most pragmatic way to approach accessibility is with an alternate path - as we do in the real world, with a ramp or elevator beside the staircase. I haven&#039;t reviewed the HTML5 spec in any detail, but presume there&#039;s nothing there which stops me from creating a more simplified version of my application which is accessible.

Best,


Matt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurent,</p>
<p>Staircases aren&#8217;t very useful for folks in wheelchairs, and yet they&#8217;re still in use everywhere. You seem to be implying that everything in the spec should be inherently accessible. I&#8217;d argue that the most pragmatic way to approach accessibility is with an alternate path &#8211; as we do in the real world, with a ramp or elevator beside the staircase. I haven&#8217;t reviewed the HTML5 spec in any detail, but presume there&#8217;s nothing there which stops me from creating a more simplified version of my application which is accessible.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: Laurent Haan</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250398</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurent Haan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 16:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250398</guid>
		<description>@Ryan Johnson: What you&#039;re doing and what you should do are two entirely different things. Most designers are completely forgetting that the most important and ultimate reason, the Internet was even conceived for, is access to information. Unfortunately, in our modern consumerist society, design and fancy animations are more important than easy accessible content.

I&#039;d rather see enhanced accessibility support for disabled people, as they also deserve access to information. We are not entitled to behave like an elitist group where we can decide who has access to what information and our main goal should be to make the information open to the broadest possible usergroup, even if it means cutting back on the visual aspects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan Johnson: What you&#8217;re doing and what you should do are two entirely different things. Most designers are completely forgetting that the most important and ultimate reason, the Internet was even conceived for, is access to information. Unfortunately, in our modern consumerist society, design and fancy animations are more important than easy accessible content.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather see enhanced accessibility support for disabled people, as they also deserve access to information. We are not entitled to behave like an elitist group where we can decide who has access to what information and our main goal should be to make the information open to the broadest possible usergroup, even if it means cutting back on the visual aspects.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan Johnson</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250395</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 15:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250395</guid>
		<description>Joeri, couldn&#039;t agree with you more. I think the HTML5 spec much more closely matches what most of us are *actually* doing with the web. Fabulous news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joeri, couldn&#8217;t agree with you more. I think the HTML5 spec much more closely matches what most of us are *actually* doing with the web. Fabulous news.</p>
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		<title>By: Joeri</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250394</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 15:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250394</guid>
		<description>Tobie, the link you posted comes from an accessibility and semantics advocate. This crowd represents a minority of users, yet until now they have absolutely dominated the W3C, to the exclusion of more common user classes. As a result, the W3C web technologies are poorly suited to web application development. It&#039;s nice to see the common usage scenario (web applications) see some attention from the standards process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tobie, the link you posted comes from an accessibility and semantics advocate. This crowd represents a minority of users, yet until now they have absolutely dominated the W3C, to the exclusion of more common user classes. As a result, the W3C web technologies are poorly suited to web application development. It&#8217;s nice to see the common usage scenario (web applications) see some attention from the standards process.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Cooijmans</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250392</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Cooijmans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 14:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250392</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s presentation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s presentation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Larson</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250386</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 14:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250386</guid>
		<description>oh html5, please let me set a width for an inline element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh html5, please let me set a width for an inline element.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobie Langel</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250377</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobie Langel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 09:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250377</guid>
		<description>Laurent, I was referring to the title of the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurent, I was referring to the title of the post.</p>
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		<title>By: AndrÃ¡s BÃ¡rthÃ¡zi</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250375</link>
		<dc:creator>AndrÃ¡s BÃ¡rthÃ¡zi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 08:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250375</guid>
		<description>Really great news. WHATWG + W3C together will mean nice possibilities for us in the future, those are not non-w3c, browser related, but &quot;official&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really great news. WHATWG + W3C together will mean nice possibilities for us in the future, those are not non-w3c, browser related, but &#8220;official&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurent Haan</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250374</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurent Haan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 08:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250374</guid>
		<description>What does convergence of the W3C and the WHAT-WG does have to do with accessibility problems in the new HTML 5 spec. The link you posted is about an entirely different subject and has nothing to do with the content of this news post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does convergence of the W3C and the WHAT-WG does have to do with accessibility problems in the new HTML 5 spec. The link you posted is about an entirely different subject and has nothing to do with the content of this news post.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobie Langel</title>
		<link>http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum/comment-page-1#comment-250372</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobie Langel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 07:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ajaxian.com/archives/html-5-positive-momentum#comment-250372</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard a frankly &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;diverging opinion&lt;/a&gt; on this issue.

I haven&#039;t had the time to follow any of this, myself, so I&#039;m not implying that either one is wrong. Just that there seems to be some discordance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard a frankly <a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/" rel="nofollow">diverging opinion</a> on this issue.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t had the time to follow any of this, myself, so I&#8217;m not implying that either one is wrong. Just that there seems to be some discordance.</p>
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