Comments on: In defense of Ajax for the iPhone http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 17 May 2012 07:43:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: jorne http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-252070 jorne Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:27:58 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-252070 Who's going to write apps for iphone anyway? What's the point? All these Apple fanboys rushing the stage. sad... Who’s going to write apps for iphone anyway? What’s the point? All these Apple fanboys rushing the stage. sad…

]]> By: Kevin http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251966 Kevin Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:15:21 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251966 This is simply a case of Apple wanting control over what goes on the phone. By not providing tools for devs to make typical device apps they are keeping the phone locked down and any apps have to play in the safari sandbox. Maybe iPhone v2 will have a proper SDK that will allow apple to have control over what type of apps and how they look, but for now, it's web only apps and an overpriced phone. I've done both handheld web apps and more traditional apps on a handheld device, I know which one I prefer and it ain't a browser. This is simply a case of Apple wanting control over what goes on the phone. By not providing tools for devs to make typical device apps they are keeping the phone locked down and any apps have to play in the safari sandbox.
Maybe iPhone v2 will have a proper SDK that will allow apple to have control over what type of apps and how they look, but for now, it’s web only apps and an overpriced phone. I’ve done both handheld web apps and more traditional apps on a handheld device, I know which one I prefer and it ain’t a browser.

]]> By: Jerkface http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251962 Jerkface Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:43:35 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251962 "Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and… has our logo." Last I checked, it was also an iPod and.. what else... didn't it have some kind of, you know, PHONE capabilities too? Nah, that would be crazy. “Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and… has our logo.”

Last I checked, it was also an iPod and.. what else… didn’t it have some kind of, you know, PHONE capabilities too? Nah, that would be crazy.

]]> By: Trevor http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251951 Trevor Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:45:50 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251951 <blockquote> Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and… has our logo.</blockquote> Where's the Apple logo?

Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and… has our logo.

Where’s the Apple logo?

]]> By: Ryan Gahl http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251950 Ryan Gahl Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:39:29 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251950 Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and... has our logo. World: Really!!!?? And I can use my fingers for everything?!! Wow, Apple, you are so cool! :-) (sorry) Apple: Buy our $500 web browser that fits in your pocket, and… has our logo.

World: Really!!!?? And I can use my fingers for everything?!! Wow, Apple, you are so cool!

:-) (sorry)

]]> By: Jordan http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251943 Jordan Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:23:54 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251943 @Elroy: The Firefox extensions are just examples of ideas that would be useful if the iPhone was open up to developers. The details of the specific examples aren't important (such as the fact that I choose Firefox extensions) but the spirit of having extensions is important. It shows that only with an open environment can developers be encouraged to make tools that truly maximize the potential of the underlying platform. And yes, an SDK presupposes that certain services will be made accessible. It's implied when people demand an SDK, they're also demanding a pluggable architecture and public APIs. Conversely, it's also implied that if a product were to offer an SDK, they will also offer some services that the SDK can call, or else they won't really be offering anything at all won't they? @Elroy:
The Firefox extensions are just examples of ideas that would be useful if the iPhone was open up to developers. The details of the specific examples aren’t important (such as the fact that I choose Firefox extensions) but the spirit of having extensions is important. It shows that only with an open environment can developers be encouraged to make tools that truly maximize the potential of the underlying platform.

And yes, an SDK presupposes that certain services will be made accessible. It’s implied when people demand an SDK, they’re also demanding a pluggable architecture and public APIs. Conversely, it’s also implied that if a product were to offer an SDK, they will also offer some services that the SDK can call, or else they won’t really be offering anything at all won’t they?

]]> By: Russ http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251942 Russ Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:58:49 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251942 The Javascript "SDK", from what I can gather, will be stuff like "openGoogleMap()", "onFlipScreen()", etc. Without an environment where you can talk to the device itself, how are we going to see apps like ... a) A VNC/RDP client b) A DivX video player c) Any game other than something that can be done in JS currently d) An SSH client The iPhone may or may not come with those example apps. The point is, the only "apps" that seem feasible are the typical web CRUD apps with a bit of AJAX goodness. Look at all the interesting apps people have written for Nokia's Symbian/J2ME platforms for more examples. The Javascript “SDK”, from what I can gather, will be stuff like “openGoogleMap()”, “onFlipScreen()”, etc.

Without an environment where you can talk to the device itself, how are we going to see apps like …

a) A VNC/RDP client
b) A DivX video player
c) Any game other than something that can be done in JS currently
d) An SSH client

The iPhone may or may not come with those example apps. The point is, the only “apps” that seem feasible are the typical web CRUD apps with a bit of AJAX goodness.

Look at all the interesting apps people have written for Nokia’s Symbian/J2ME platforms for more examples.

]]> By: Elroy Jetson http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251941 Elroy Jetson Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:36:23 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251941 Interesting input on the need for an SDK. Don't all of these arguments presuppose that Apple would have made available these services, like hardware access for speech recognition or video conferencing? Or is it assumed that if you can put an application on the phone that the SDK is fairly irrelevant and you can by pass it to talk to the hardware directly? Interesting list of apps Jordan. Adblock is already built into Safari. Greasemonkey is a plugin to firefox. None of those require an in SDK for the phone to use as they are dependent on the browser and its SDK. I am not as familiar with the other apps. Interesting input on the need for an SDK. Don’t all of these arguments presuppose that Apple would have made available these services, like hardware access for speech recognition or video conferencing? Or is it assumed that if you can put an application on the phone that the SDK is fairly irrelevant and you can by pass it to talk to the hardware directly?

Interesting list of apps Jordan. Adblock is already built into Safari. Greasemonkey is a plugin to firefox. None of those require an in SDK for the phone to use as they are dependent on the browser and its SDK. I am not as familiar with the other apps.

]]> By: Clarence Odbody http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251940 Clarence Odbody Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:35:41 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251940 If the phone is a huge success, then one good side-effect will be that it will help produce better compliance, and it will be that much harder for a "developer" to get away with producing a site that relies on IE. If the phone is a huge success, then one good side-effect will be that it will help produce better compliance, and it will be that much harder for a “developer” to get away with producing a site that relies on IE.

]]> By: Jordan http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251939 Jordan Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:15:11 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251939 @Elroy: Without an SDK we can't build useful tools like AdBlock, Greasemonkey, BugMeNot, Google Translator Toolbar, Linky, etc. And using AJAX it would be next to impossible to write applications like speech recognition software or video conferencing software (Skype). @Elroy:
Without an SDK we can’t build useful tools like AdBlock, Greasemonkey, BugMeNot, Google Translator Toolbar, Linky, etc. And using AJAX it would be next to impossible to write applications like speech recognition software or video conferencing software (Skype).

]]> By: Hans Schmucker http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251934 Hans Schmucker Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:07:29 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251934 Basically, you can't to anything that apple didn't expect it to do... coming from a PalmOS background, I can tell you there are lots of things device manufacturers don't expect you to do, for example on the UX50, there are programs to remap the keyboard, recreate the UI API to implement a different standard design, implement a different memory handline that allows programmers to use storage memory as if it was dynamic memory (which is not much slower, since storage is also RAM), change the battery settings, use antialiased fonts... so yes, there are lots of things you can't do in a language that doesn't provide direct hardware and API access. However what's probably more important is how Apple designs the JS API. For example, there's no even remotely usable way for bitmap reading in JS... the only way is CANVAS, but that gives you a 3 dimensional array, so the overhead is really enourmus. Also, you'd need additional methods and data types to handle binary data. In fact, you'd need a whole array of native data types, since JS is not meant to handle files or any other kind of raw data. Also, you need interface classes if you want programs to look consistent, and a whole new security concept. I don't think the problem is JS... the problem is that I don't trust them to solve all these problems. To me it looks like they expected AJAX to be the "easiest" way to allow third-party apps, without thinking it through. On the Plus side, JS is already running in a (relatively) secure environment and, more importantly: Since JS is an interpreted language, it can be paused and resumed at any time (not to mention that it simply cannot crash anything but the currently running script) which makes it a perfect "neglectable" citizen on the iPhone, who quietly disappears into the background whenever something urgent (say, a phone call) comes up. Basically, you can’t to anything that apple didn’t expect it to do… coming from a PalmOS background, I can tell you there are lots of things device manufacturers don’t expect you to do, for example on the UX50, there are programs to remap the keyboard, recreate the UI API to implement a different standard design, implement a different memory handline that allows programmers to use storage memory as if it was dynamic memory (which is not much slower, since storage is also RAM), change the battery settings, use antialiased fonts… so yes, there are lots of things you can’t do in a language that doesn’t provide direct hardware and API access.

However what’s probably more important is how Apple designs the JS API. For example, there’s no even remotely usable way for bitmap reading in JS… the only way is CANVAS, but that gives you a 3 dimensional array, so the overhead is really enourmus. Also, you’d need additional methods and data types to handle binary data. In fact, you’d need a whole array of native data types, since JS is not meant to handle files or any other kind of raw data. Also, you need interface classes if you want programs to look consistent, and a whole new security concept. I don’t think the problem is JS… the problem is that I don’t trust them to solve all these problems. To me it looks like they expected AJAX to be the “easiest” way to allow third-party apps, without thinking it through.

On the Plus side, JS is already running in a (relatively) secure environment and, more importantly: Since JS is an interpreted language, it can be paused and resumed at any time (not to mention that it simply cannot crash anything but the currently running script) which makes it a perfect “neglectable” citizen on the iPhone, who quietly disappears into the background whenever something urgent (say, a phone call) comes up.

]]> By: Will Gillen http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251933 Will Gillen Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:59:20 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251933 Providing an SDK has the intrinsic value of causing developers to conform to specific standard. In the case of the iPhone using "AJAX" as the primary development platform makes those standards much more loose. Now some will argue that this is good, and others will argue that this is bad. However, I believe that having an SDK creates more value for the END-USER because the applications tend to be more dependable in the end. That's what we're here for right: to please the user... Providing an SDK has the intrinsic value of causing developers to conform to specific standard. In the case of the iPhone using “AJAX” as the primary development platform makes those standards much more loose. Now some will argue that this is good, and others will argue that this is bad. However, I believe that having an SDK creates more value for the END-USER because the applications tend to be more dependable in the end. That’s what we’re here for right: to please the user…

]]> By: Elroy Jetson http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251927 Elroy Jetson Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:14:45 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251927 Call me naive, but could someone articulate an argument for what an SDK on the iPhone would provide that you can not access through an AJAX web app? So far all I have heard for an argument is "because," which hardly seems like a well thought out argument for an SDK. Call me naive, but could someone articulate an argument for what an SDK on the iPhone would provide that you can not access through an AJAX web app?

So far all I have heard for an argument is “because,” which hardly seems like a well thought out argument for an SDK.

]]> By: Joe http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251926 Joe Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:43:03 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251926 Yea, you wouldn't want AJAX to be a REAL SDK - God Forbid! Let's leave it like it is - implemented differently in different browsers from now until eternity. That's what makes it fun! NOT! Yea, you wouldn’t want AJAX to be a REAL SDK – God Forbid! Let’s leave it like it is – implemented differently in different browsers from now until eternity. That’s what makes it fun! NOT!

]]> By: Jordan http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251922 Jordan Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:19:34 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251922 I don't think anyone has anything against Ajax or has any doubts of its abilities. But it's the fact that Steve Jobs is pushing it to be on par with a real SDK, is what people are not happy about. I don’t think anyone has anything against Ajax or has any doubts of its abilities. But it’s the fact that Steve Jobs is pushing it to be on par with a real SDK, is what people are not happy about.

]]> By: Joeri http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251921 Joeri Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:04:49 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251921 These claims sound like iphone excuse making. If any web app developer is automatically an iphone ajax developer, then any java developer is automatically a java mobile developer. Web applications are ill-suited to mobile devices. J2ME works, and works well, for building mobile apps, and you don't have to be (too) phone-specific. I can't fathom how a browser-restricted model could be superior to that. Phone-specific SDK's tend to be used either because the app needs to have access to local resources beyond what J2ME offers, or because the app needs the raw performance. These claims sound like iphone excuse making.

If any web app developer is automatically an iphone ajax developer, then any java developer is automatically a java mobile developer.

Web applications are ill-suited to mobile devices. J2ME works, and works well, for building mobile apps, and you don’t have to be (too) phone-specific. I can’t fathom how a browser-restricted model could be superior to that.

Phone-specific SDK’s tend to be used either because the app needs to have access to local resources beyond what J2ME offers, or because the app needs the raw performance.

]]> By: mg http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251919 mg Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:55:52 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251919 Main factor is first, the open community and second, that if Safari is well-implemented most security issues are also gone when developing with evolved web-standards ;) Main factor is first, the open community and second, that if Safari is well-implemented most security issues are also gone when developing with evolved web-standards ;)

]]> By: Калоян К. Цветков http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone/comment-page-1#comment-251916 Калоян К. Цветков Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:40:37 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/archives/in-defense-of-ajax-for-the-iphone#comment-251916 Wise Words! Wise Words!

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