Tuesday, October 16th, 2007

Moo on Us: Survey Update

Category: Survey

We goofed in our recent survey story; we left out MooTools from the “Frameworks” category. While it wasn’t an option in the original survey, over 11% of those surveyed wrote it in. If we’d actually included Moo as an option, it’s likely to have scored even higher.

Many apologies for the gaffe; those responsible have been sacked, spat upon, flogged, and keel-hauled. We updated the PDF with this information as well as the number of respondents: 826.

Posted by Ben Galbraith at 3:14 pm

4 rating from 29 votes


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826… not a very big number for a survey :/

Comment by DarkRat — October 16, 2007

no apology necessary. moo doesn’t care about popularity anyway. we are the few, the chosen, the elite. popularity if for n00bs.

we ask that ajaxian refrain from covering us in the future. it just attracts more n00bs to our forums who are…

a) lazy and want us to do their coding for them.

b) stupid because they obviously haven’t read our documentation and tutorials before asking their questions

Comment by troof — October 16, 2007

this is very basic requirement, in many forums you will get the “RTFM” message for basics. Mootools has a a lot of resources in the site and in google.

If you don’t want to code, hire someone, and if you want do this yourself – so check the tutorials and get experienced.
If you get a code but you don’t understand each statement, it’s not make you better programmer, it’s make you a better copier.

Comment by Nir Tayeb — October 16, 2007

@DarkRat: Sorry, I need to ask but who the hell are you? I am not a MooTools dev but use the framework on every project I do, for the last 6 months at least. I have also worked with some of the main dev’s and none of them would ever write or say ‘we are the few, the chosen, the elite’. That isn’t their attitude at all, as far as I can tell.

Seems like you are acting as a double agent and not very subtle I might add! Come on, give the framework and the dev’s respect where necessary! Sure, the forum isn’t the best face of MooTools at the moment. But I’ve seen allot worse and still find help whenever needed!

Comment by nfq — October 16, 2007

@nfq: I think you mean troof

Comment by Andy — October 16, 2007

lol @ troof – “the chosen one”

Comment by kangax — October 16, 2007

Exactly. I use moo with everything. I’m in a similar position to nfq (Hi btw!) and this kind of attitude.. where did it come from? Moo seems to be flooded with people who can’t cope with the understandable comment of ‘Read the damn documentation before you ask a ridiculously over-asked question’. Way more so than other frameworks, I think.

Comment by Marc Fowler — October 16, 2007

Hi. I’m a mootools dev. I wrote the first draft of the mootools docs, I authored the main tutorial (http://clientside.cnet.com/wiki/), I contribute code, and I help on the forums.

I’d just like to say that none of (the developers) know who troof is and none of us would ever say anything like this.

A word about the perception that the Mootools community isn’t a friendly one. Mootools is one of the few frameworks that offer forums at all. Understandably, they are somewhat unruly as we get a mix of people from total noobs who don’t know anything about javascript to serious developers who are awesome. We also get really nice people and we get jerks – such is the way of teh internets.

We try and keep the forums focused and we try and insist that people who post there at least demonstrate that they’ve tried to look at the docs and examples. This attempt did in fact garner a sense that we are not friendly towards new users but that’s not true. We just weren’t very tolerant of lazy ones.

In an effort to diminish the perception that we weren’t friendly, we recently relaxed this policy and no longer try and enforce these guidelines so much and the result is the forums are less useful to people who know some javascript than before, so much so that we are contemplating removing the forums from our project (again, you’ll note that there aren’t any other frameworks that host a forum – to my knowledge anyway).

The developers of Mootools enjoy working on our framework and enjoy working with it. For the most part, we enjoy seeing others work with it, but we aren’t competing with anyone. We have a lot of respect for YUI, Prototype, jQuery and all the others and we often find ourselves learning from their work. We build generic tools like our http://mootools.net/slickspeed/ application that helps all the frameworks tune their CSS selectors and our own documentation engine http://code.google.com/p/natural-api/source for documenting javascript (or anything else, for that matter).

I hope that this clears up any confusion that @troof might have introduced with his post which was in very poor taste.

-Aaron Newton

Comment by Aaron N. — October 16, 2007

Please don’t use Mootools, the competitive edge is best kept secret.

Comment by Cows — October 16, 2007

I’ve had topics closed or deleted, been made fun of, and seen statements from the creators and moderators that in effect say, “This is our sandbox, and we’ll do what we want, so deal with it”. It is pretty hard to fight that attitude, because it really is their sandbox. One the one hand, MooTools is the best JS library going, hands down. I’ve tried many of them, and while there are lots of good JS libs, MooTools is more solid, has more features, and just overall seems more cohesive than the other offerings. It is hard for me to justify using another library just to spite the bad attitudes being presented here. On the other hand, there is not a technology in the world that we all know 100%. A little support is needed now and then. The docs are good, but only if you know what you are looking for in the first place, and even then the actual syntax can often be very tricky. The MooTorial is also excellent, huge props to anweton for doing that. But again, even so, it is still very much a vanilla “Hello World” example of each function, and can’t possibly cover every possible scenario or need. It is hard for me to keep using MooTools knowing that I have zero support, and that the creators don’t give a damn. What perplexes me about this forum is why the moderators are so adamant about questions meeting up to their high standards? Ok, so let’s say a really, really stupid question is asked. Who cares? If it is that dumb, then don’t answer it. End of story. No one is saying that you are personally responsible for answering all those dumb questions. Move on the next one. Some of the other noobs are welcome to jump in try to answer it, and it requires less time and effort on your part to ignore it then it would to close/delete/ban the topic/user in the first place. Which I guess raises the next question for me. As you (ibolmo) stated above, you don’t want a large user base. But your words and actions don’t really mesh. This library was made publicly available, it is under a generous MIT license, and is has been touted on many web sites including DIGG and others. I think I remember Valerio saying “feel free to DIGG this” when v1.0 came out. Ok, so if you want a small user group, then why all the advertising? Why do this at all? You lead all these people in here, and we are all pumped and ready to learn about MooTools, only to get slapped in the face for daring to ask a question. RTFM is NOT an answer. Pretty much everyone here has RTFM. And if you are going to post RTFM as a reply, at least maybe a pointer in the general direction of the topic would help. (i.e See Remoting in the Docs), as opposed to simply declaring them an idiot and not even telling them why their topic was closed. It is insulting. I’m not sure why you don’t see it that way, but it is. No one likes to be treated like an idiot, and I truly in my heart hope that someday you’ll ask someone for help and get shot down, so that you’ll know how it feels.

Comment by sumguy — October 16, 2007

sumguy, I agree that there have been some responses on the forums that have not shown much tact. We do try and help people who post to the forums with legitimate questions. We don’t, however, tend to spend much time with people who post questions like “It won’t work!” or people who post the same question that has been posted every other day (“How do I make accordion work?”). You are right; the proper way to handle such issues is to ignore such threads. I think that the rough spot is that the forums were originally used by the developers and the early adopters to talk ABOUT mootools. That’s changed, and now they are used mostly for people who have trouble using it. If someone posts a code example and has a problem that demonstrates they’ve put in some effort, we’re much more likely to help them. If someone just posts a “Make it do something!” post we tend to frown upon it. Previously we closed these threads because we viewed them as counter productive. Now we just don’t reply.

It’s not that we don’t support the library (my god, the documenation and tutorial and demos demonstrate we’re TRYING to help people learn it), it’s that we aren’t interested in teach people javascript…

Comment by Aaron Newton — October 16, 2007

Actually, DarkRat , 826 can very statistically significant, depending on how diverse people are. Its probably an accurate representation of Ajaxian readers, but maybe not the entire marketplace.

Comment by Alexei — October 16, 2007

First of all: Compliments to Ajaxian for adding MooTools to the survey. Hopefully we’ll get invited to the next Ajaxian Experience (sorry for lame plug? haha :D).

@sumguy: Sorry if it seemed that I didn’t want MooTools to succeed. My opinion was that MooTools shouldn’t have to focus on growth (more on the quality of code and development). Also, I’m not familiar with all the advetisement you’re referring to (except the lame plug I suppose). On the note of the forum. I must agree that I can be harsh, but it’s a learning process for me/us as well. As Aaron has mentioned, we’re trying to be less involved in user’s affairs (note the difference between user and developer) so that we don’t “upset” people. I’m not jaded, however, I’ve been on the receiving end when I was learning MooTools and other languagues. I have learned, however, to research before I ask (no offense). That’s what we’ve bee trying to promote — I guess it hasn’t worked.

Nevertheless, I wish you guys wouldn’t rant in Ajaxian. Come to the irc channel (irc://irc.freenode.net/mootools) so we can talk mano a mano.

Comment by Olmo Maldonado (ibolmo) — October 17, 2007

@Andy: yes, sorry, I did mean troof! Apologies DarkRat

Comment by nfq — October 17, 2007

Am I the only one who read troof’s comment as pure sarcasm? Seems people are a little touchy…

Comment by Derrick Spell — October 17, 2007

Wow, this spiraled into another debate.

I’m a frequent MooTools user (80+ commercial customer projects) and probably check the SVN for tickets/version progress far too often.

That said, I do think MooTools gets slighted publicity-wise. I frequent Ajaxian.com and rarely, rarely see anything MooTools related (5 at current count). Not to say there’s a conspiracy, but they do great things that don’t often get placed on this site.

As far as MooTools devs being short with people, I understand their reasons completely. They aren’t tech support. They aren’t your personal coding buddy. They aren’t your substitute for learning the language (javascript and the Moo flavor). Yet users seem to think that as the case. The forum is offered as a convenience to developers to get help from other developers — not people who Googled “javascript effect”, saw a MooTools project, and wanted to get that on their site with little to no javascript knowledge.

Olmo and Aaron, thanks for posting and for all of your hard work. I look forward to 1.2 hope I can help with the project some day.

Comment by David Walsh — October 17, 2007

P.S. Aaron, please don’t get rid of the forums!

Comment by David Walsh — October 17, 2007

yeah, Aaron do not get rid of the forums. I am sure you can see the usefulness of it

Comment by EmEhRKay — October 17, 2007

Count my vote for mootools

Comment by Stan Ozier — October 17, 2007

I too have noticed the subtle bias towards writing about some libraries and not others…
Let me sum up the reasons ;P
1. Rey Bengo is actually hired by not only ExtJS but also jQuery and a couple of others “frequently written about JS libraries” but not by mootools…
In fact if you compare the graph with ExtJS at Alexa.com with ReyBengo’s hiring here and when he’s written about ExtJS you understand why ExtJS “rocketed” at Alexa at about the same time he got hired…
It wouldn’t be possible for us too to hire you Rey…? ;P
2. Most of the other writers here at Ajaxian have either some jQuery, dojo or ExtJS etc connection…
3. Hmm… There was no three I think… ;P
Though prototype.js and ScriptAculous are actually TOO big for them to ignore, mootools is “just big enough” for them to feel like they “have” to write about it…
The funny thing is that we (Gaia) is actually entirely built on TOP of Prototype.js and ScriptAculous, still they think it’s more interesting to write about some guy figuring out how to animate a div in and out according to “mousemove” and “keypress” on “window” than a complete solution for building RIAs without having to fiddle with JavaScript at all and also without replacing the browser with some ActiveX technology…
When that’s said, mootools is not the only Open Source Ajax library with a forum, we have forums and the average response time for postings there is less than 30 minutes. In 70% of the cases we find the answer in our first reply, in 25% of the cases we find the answer during 6 hours. 95% of the feature requests and bug-reports in our forums have been implemented in the next upcoming release which never are more than 45 days away. And we’ve NEVER posted RTFM to anyone posting in our forums…
Oh yeah, and if it’s a FAQ we often even make TUTORIAL VIDEOS for them to show the answer to the specific FAQ…!
In fact we’ve never been rude or “saying that find out for yourself” or anything in that neighborhood ever during the lifetime of our forums…
And we have about 50 tutorials on OUR site and about twice as many “off-site” ranging from dnrtv.com to codeproject.com.
Most of our tutorials are also in fact Video tutorials (high quality videos with _extreme_ download speed) demonstrating Gaia in “real world use”. And since we weren’t invited to the Ajax Exp. we’re throwing our own for FREE for our users next year… ;P
But I guess we’re just below the threshold for being “too big to not being able to ignore” for the FLEXians…
Anyway you all are hereby welcome both as users of our Ajax library, our forums and our Ajax Experience next year ;P
(in Oslo)
We’re also a commercial vendor behind the library which I assume raises the incentives for giving great support… ;P
Not to mention our SPEED, we’ve quadrupled the amount of features about every second month since our first release 5th of February this year in addition to cutting the number of known bugs in half at the same interval, still giving an environment that basically requires NO learning what-so-ever to learn! (as long as you know ASP.NET)
Oh yeah, we also give FREE support for also our Open Source users and not only our commercial users since we feel it increases the quality of our forums for commercial users too and thereby increases the value-add for commercial users…
Not to mention we give away free commercial licenses for environmental portals and websites…
So if you’re on .Net or Mono and tired of spending most of your debugging time in FireBug debugging some “ext.xxx” or “jQuery.yyy” feel free to write your entire application in C#, VB.NET, Boo or IronPython and have binary compatibility on both Windows, Linux and even Mac (funny thing is in practice .Net is actually MORE “build once, deploy all over the place” than the guys who invented that slogan, MSFT just don’t want to “admit” it… ;) and let us take care of your JavaScript worries… ;P
Our ENTIRE Samples application (including our “charm offense” to Ajaxian.com at http://ajaxwidgets.com/AllControlsSamples/Ajax-Window-Madness.aspx is written without ONE line of custom JavaScript entirely in C#)
And some final word to the mootools guys;
I’ve had a little peek at your stuff and you guys ROCK…!
Keep up the brilliant work…! :)
And if anyone of you should ever feel the need to have a paycheck sometime feel free to send me an email to thomas@frostinnovation.no and we’ll try to get you doing what you do today for MONEY as a DAYJOB…! ;P
I’ve copied and pasted this comment into a text file I’ve stored locally and I’ll check back the next couple of days and if it’s not still here I’ll post it UNCHANGED to my blog throwing Ajaxian as part of the header, anchor text and URL while submitting it to the 15 000 largest SM websites on the planet…! ;P

Comment by Thomas Hansen — October 17, 2007

@Thomas: Man, if the 4 Ext JS posts that I’ve made since starting with Ajaxian have had that much of an impact, then I *MUST* be *REALLY* good!

PS: The last name is Bango with an ‘a’. At least have the courtesy to spell my name correctly.

Comment by Rey Bango — October 17, 2007


You are really helping the cause of your library by commenting like this. I am sure it will make people want to spend time looking at it, and working with you. Which is a shame, as Gaia has some stuff going for it. Thanks for taking the time to make the community a better place.



Comment by Dion Almaer — October 17, 2007

Hi Dion and Rey, when I read this today (after a good nights sleep) I can see I “got a little bit carried away” and off course jumped to conclusions and such which I did not have the basis for concluding with…
I guess that’s one of the negative aspects about being truly idealistic and work 120 hours per week… ;)
However you both should realize that I’ve been following you guys quite closely (we tried to arrange to meet you Dion in fact when you were in Oslo, but missed you unfortunately…) since I’ve been determined on figuring out “the code” to get you guys to write about us without a lot of success…! :(
Now combine that with a true idealistic behavior and you can see why I am a bit disappointed… :(
And if you look at the numbers it isn’t really all that weird I come up with “conclusions” of my own;
These are just the ones having their own TAGS in your CMS system;
* Dojo == 128 posts
* Ext == 32 posts
* GWT == 34 posts
* jQuery == 40 posts
While MooTools which are at least as good as Dojo, Ext JS and jQuery have only 5…
Now if you combine the Alexa graphs with the times you write about the specific libraries it’s quite easy to “jump to conclusions” I hope you’ll understand…
Not to mention ours _two_ posts which one of was chosen (I think) because it would make us look _bad_ and the other one was misunderstood completely…
But I am sorry for being rude and suggesting things with sarcasm which obviously is easy to misunderstand…
That was not my intention, I think my feelings got the best of me this time and I hope you can apologize me :)

Comment by Thomas Hansen — October 18, 2007

Yey! I love the Moo framework and fine it brilliant for adding in that little bit extra to my sites. It would have been interesting if it was included on the original survey to see how many other were using it but sure there’s always next yr ;)

Comment by Richard Reddy — October 18, 2007

Cant seem to find the results. where is the pdf file?

Comment by Gorm — December 3, 2007

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