Comments on: Saving Ourselves From the Unweb http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb Cleaning up the web with Ajax Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:55:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2 By: ctkeene http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262568 ctkeene Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:30:27 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262568 Nice to see that we kicked off a spirited debate ;-) If you are interested in upcoming Visual Ajax webinars, please go to http://visualajax.org Nice to see that we kicked off a spirited debate ;-)

If you are interested in upcoming Visual Ajax webinars, please go to

http://visualajax.org

]]> By: slightlyoff http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262539 slightlyoff Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:48:57 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262539 AMA3: Not at all. Simply noting that the IE team was significantly incented by healthy competition to churn out all manner of great things in that timeframe. You brought up a non-apropos example and I responded...that's all. Regards AMA3:

Not at all. Simply noting that the IE team was significantly incented by healthy competition to churn out all manner of great things in that timeframe. You brought up a non-apropos example and I responded…that’s all.

Regards

]]> By: NormanKlein http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262534 NormanKlein Wed, 02 Apr 2008 05:48:24 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262534 Maybe I'm missing something, but aren't these capabilities already provided by OpenLaszlo. Its declarative markup language is open source and supports all of today's popular browsers, plus Flash. Additionally, its architecture is designed to be extensible to support other popular future platforms such as SilverLight? Why re-invent the wheel? Norman Klein Laszlo in Action www.manning.com/klein Maybe I’m missing something, but aren’t these capabilities already provided by OpenLaszlo. Its declarative markup language is open source and supports all of today’s popular browsers, plus Flash. Additionally, its architecture is designed to be extensible to support other popular future platforms such as SilverLight? Why re-invent the wheel?

Norman Klein
Laszlo in Action
http://www.manning.com/klein

]]> By: BradNeuberg http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262530 BradNeuberg Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:09:19 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262530 @genericallyloud: This is exactly what we are trying to do with Gears :) Ping me to find out how we can work together to make this happen. brad++neuberg atat google.com (remove the ++ and replace the atat). Brad Neuberg Gears http://codinginparadise.org @genericallyloud: This is exactly what we are trying to do with Gears :) Ping me to find out how we can work together to make this happen. brad++neuberg atat google.com (remove the ++ and replace the atat).

Brad Neuberg
Gears
http://codinginparadise.org

]]> By: AMA3 http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262500 AMA3 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:53:13 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262500 Are you suggesting that MSIE owes its market domination to XHR? Are you suggesting that MSIE owes its market domination to XHR?

]]> By: slightlyoff http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262499 slightlyoff Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:21:37 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262499 AMA3: MSIE introduced the XHR ActiveX object in IE 5.0. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Market_share_by_year_and_version The precipitous rise of MSIE was still underway at that point, and it wasn't yet clear that Netscape was no longer on top. More to the point, when IE 5 went into development, IE *wasn't* on top. The timing of when things happened is as instructive as who did them since it speaks to motivating factors, not simply outcomes. Regards AMA3:

MSIE introduced the XHR ActiveX object in IE 5.0. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Market_share_by_year_and_version

The precipitous rise of MSIE was still underway at that point, and it wasn’t yet clear that Netscape was no longer on top. More to the point, when IE 5 went into development, IE *wasn’t* on top.

The timing of when things happened is as instructive as who did them since it speaks to motivating factors, not simply outcomes.

Regards

]]> By: musicfreak http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262497 musicfreak Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:03:42 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262497 <strong>polterguy</strong>: You asked for the bad attention. The reason you got so much is because your argument was completely biased towards Adobe, and most of your points were not valid. You made it seem like Flex is an evil thing, when it's not. And of course, you got all the Flex developers jumping at you. polterguy: You asked for the bad attention. The reason you got so much is because your argument was completely biased towards Adobe, and most of your points were not valid. You made it seem like Flex is an evil thing, when it’s not. And of course, you got all the Flex developers jumping at you.

]]> By: slightlyoff http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262495 slightlyoff Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:59:15 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262495 Breton: Gnash is a bad example because the format which they're chasing is controlled by a single vendor with foreknowledge of its evolution. Should gnash do something new and/or different, it wouldn't matter to a statistically significant amount of Flash content (which is a good way to figure out if a single vendor has control). Gears, OTOH, has a viable solution to the distribution issue (see today's Google Docs announcement). Starting from scratch *is* a real problem, but it's assailable (otherwise why would MSFT be trying w/ Silverlight?). Regards Breton:

Gnash is a bad example because the format which they’re chasing is controlled by a single vendor with foreknowledge of its evolution. Should gnash do something new and/or different, it wouldn’t matter to a statistically significant amount of Flash content (which is a good way to figure out if a single vendor has control).

Gears, OTOH, has a viable solution to the distribution issue (see today’s Google Docs announcement). Starting from scratch *is* a real problem, but it’s assailable (otherwise why would MSFT be trying w/ Silverlight?).

Regards

]]> By: musicfreak http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262494 musicfreak Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:58:39 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262494 The un-web? What the hell? Guys, Flex and Silverlight are not going to take over the web. They have their place, but they are not going to replace traditional HTML/Ajax. Did Flash replace JavaScript? No. So what's so different about Flex and Silverlight? It's not the apocalypse, so stop complaining about it. The un-web? What the hell? Guys, Flex and Silverlight are not going to take over the web. They have their place, but they are not going to replace traditional HTML/Ajax. Did Flash replace JavaScript? No. So what’s so different about Flex and Silverlight? It’s not the apocalypse, so stop complaining about it.

]]> By: Breton http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262486 Breton Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:39:45 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262486 I don't think an open source plugin will be the answer. (just look at gnash, it works pretty good on *some* things, but just can't keep up with flash). Then there's the problem of penetration. The flash (or gnash) plugin is already on everyone's computer. A new open source plugin would have to start from scratch. I quite like the middle ground answer: Compatibility layers. Implement the new html5 application features now, using plain javascript, and where javascript isn't powerful enough, use the flash plugin. The code you build will all be Web applications 1.0, with video tags and audio tags galore, and with a simple it would all work. Then when it gets implemented in browser, the page silently and smoothly swaps over to using the native browser implementation. I don’t think an open source plugin will be the answer. (just look at gnash, it works pretty good on *some* things, but just can’t keep up with flash). Then there’s the problem of penetration. The flash (or gnash) plugin is already on everyone’s computer. A new open source plugin would have to start from scratch.

I quite like the middle ground answer: Compatibility layers. Implement the new html5 application features now, using plain javascript, and where javascript isn’t powerful enough, use the flash plugin. The code you build will all be Web applications 1.0, with video tags and audio tags galore, and with a simple it would all work. Then when it gets implemented in browser, the page silently and smoothly swaps over to using the native browser implementation.

]]> By: Mark Holton http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262480 Mark Holton Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:45 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262480 "Evolve the existing web by pushing browser vendors to add semantic HTML capabilities that support next generation web apps. " I'm all for that. Well said. “Evolve the existing web by pushing browser vendors to add semantic HTML capabilities that support next generation web apps. ”

I’m all for that. Well said.

]]> By: genericallyloud http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262479 genericallyloud Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:42:44 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262479 Its not much, but I created a google group as a place to discuss the possibility of a plugin competitor. http://groups.google.com/group/fight-for-an-open-web?hl=en Its not much, but I created a google group as a place to discuss the possibility of a plugin competitor. http://groups.google.com/group/fight-for-an-open-web?hl=en

]]> By: genericallyloud http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262470 genericallyloud Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:43:14 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262470 I've been thinking about this issue a lot because I (like many people) love the open web and hate to see us go down the road of the "un-web". However, I have to admit that the gap between ajax and these new technologies is pretty big. Recently, there has been a pretty significant push to move the web forward. HTML 5, JavaScript 2, Acid 3 are all signs of good things to come. But will it come fast enough? Will it be cross-browser enough? And even if it happens, will it be good enough? In theory, the broad spectrum of technologies (html 5, css 3, js 2,svg) can do most of what Flex can do, but its also about the packaging. Flex has a lot more polish. It has a clear solution on uniting the parts to get a cohesive product. It is guaranteed to work the same in all supported environments. There are a lot of positives there. In the end my thought is this. Is there a way to fight fire with fire? If Flex/Silverlight/JavaFX threaten the open web, is there a way to compete on the same playing field. If the w3c technologies can't compete, can we take a different route. I propose that one very real solution to the problem would be to create an open source plugin technology to compete. It would allow a few things. First of all, it could ignore backwards compatibility because there would be nothing to be compatible to. Secondly, the cross browser issue would be resolved by being a competing plugin. The sky would be the limit. Of course, the roadmap would be to hopefully merge the technology back into the standard, but there's no time to start there. Besides, it would be a great testing ground before making a standard. I only wish I had the time and knowledge to do it myself! I’ve been thinking about this issue a lot because I (like many people) love the open web and hate to see us go down the road of the “un-web”. However, I have to admit that the gap between ajax and these new technologies is pretty big. Recently, there has been a pretty significant push to move the web forward. HTML 5, JavaScript 2, Acid 3 are all signs of good things to come. But will it come fast enough? Will it be cross-browser enough? And even if it happens, will it be good enough? In theory, the broad spectrum of technologies (html 5, css 3, js 2,svg) can do most of what Flex can do, but its also about the packaging. Flex has a lot more polish. It has a clear solution on uniting the parts to get a cohesive product. It is guaranteed to work the same in all supported environments. There are a lot of positives there.

In the end my thought is this. Is there a way to fight fire with fire? If Flex/Silverlight/JavaFX threaten the open web, is there a way to compete on the same playing field. If the w3c technologies can’t compete, can we take a different route. I propose that one very real solution to the problem would be to create an open source plugin technology to compete. It would allow a few things. First of all, it could ignore backwards compatibility because there would be nothing to be compatible to. Secondly, the cross browser issue would be resolved by being a competing plugin. The sky would be the limit.

Of course, the roadmap would be to hopefully merge the technology back into the standard, but there’s no time to start there. Besides, it would be a great testing ground before making a standard. I only wish I had the time and knowledge to do it myself!

]]> By: polterguy http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262453 polterguy Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:05:04 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262453 I tried to save us (ref; http://ajaxwidgets.com/Blogs/thomas/7_reasons_not_to_consider_usin.bb ) but got so much bad attention (read the comments) that I didn't dare to continue... :| I tried to save us (ref; http://ajaxwidgets.com/Blogs/thomas/7_reasons_not_to_consider_usin.bb ) but got so much bad attention (read the comments) that I didn’t dare to continue… :|

]]> By: AMA3 http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262437 AMA3 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:21:12 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262437 <blockquote>What we know is that we have never gotten good browser enhancements and tools from the market leader. So now you know what you need to do to save the web - download and use the underdog web browser and give it all the love you can ;-)</blockquote> Seems the author forgot which browser gave us the XHR object first.

What we know is that we have never gotten good browser enhancements and tools from the market leader. So now you know what you need to do to save the web – download and use the underdog web browser and give it all the love you can ;-)

Seems the author forgot which browser gave us the XHR object first.

]]> By: OndraM http://ajaxian.com/archives/saving-ourselves-from-the-unweb/comment-page-1#comment-262434 OndraM Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:09:45 +0000 http://ajaxian.com/?p=3493#comment-262434 it just takes a widespread support for HTML+JS+SVG and we have our own open Flash platform ;) (oh - and I forgot too mention a lot of work....) This may seem like a far off idea now, with all those nifty features and components of Flash (or Express) - but from standards perspective, SVG has everything it should need - besides a fast, reliable and of course crossplatform implementation.... it just takes a widespread support for HTML+JS+SVG and we have our own open Flash platform ;) (oh – and I forgot too mention a lot of work….)

This may seem like a far off idea now, with all those nifty features and components of Flash (or Express) – but from standards perspective, SVG has everything it should need – besides a fast, reliable and of course crossplatform implementation….

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