Comments on: You Leaked on my JavaScript!

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 02:02:01 +0000

@paulhan
What issues…?
Unless you “read something else then what I wrote”, I think I made it really fucking perfectly clear for you…
Documentation is there, it’s not even very well hidden, though if you’re so interested in PHP as you obviously are – why do you care…?
This is .Net or ASP.NET, which for you (probably) means that learning ASP.NET would be a gazillion times more important then reading the Ra-Ajax docs…?
.
Regarding “holidays”, what guarantees do you have in that John doesn’t figure out he’ll spend the “next year” in China or something studying Buddhism…?
.
About me calling you Britney Spears – unless you say something really stupid like “all Managed Ajax libraries sucks” like John did I think you should be relatively safe … ;)
.
Now whether or not I’m “lower then a snake’s belly” or not, that doesn’t really matter since people like me and the guys behind GWT etc will anyway prove to deliver libraries able to put the “DHTML guys” *out-of-business*…!
.
So in one year from now you’ll either be doing Windows or Apache sys-admin works unless you “bite” on the Managed Ajax parts. And in case you still haven’t understood why – the “Managed Ajax guys” can deliver a *gazillion* times the functionality in a *gazillion’th the time* the time frame…
.
You’re trying to make this about me, but really it’s about YOU…!
Either you “bite” or you’re *fucking-history*, there’s nothing *I* can do about that except trying to show you “the light”.
And if I was an asshole, I wouldn’t really care, right…?
Though my problem is that I *do* care…!
.
“Pearls for swines” is an old biblical saying, I am not really sure if it fits here, but it truly feels like it…
.
But keep to jQuery by all means, it probably is the “middle of the road” for at least a year or so more. Though *when* (1-2 years) you end up becoming the “sysadmin” of people doing *real* web applications development, then don’t blame me…
I tried…!!!

By: TNO

TNO — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:07:47 +0000

@Thomas:
Due to the length of my response to your blog post, I’ll wait for you to open your comment system to reply.

By: paulhan

paulhan — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:51:00 +0000

@Thomas,
OK, so I’m going to bite again.
I notice you studiously avoided the issue I raised on John Resig’s blog and in your own denial of the link provided by TNO. That is, that people will not put up with a half second+ delay every time they click something.
And there’s more:
Where’s the documentation.
How do I integrate widgets that you haven’t provided, like a treetable, or a toolbar for instance
Can I be assured that if the four developers go on holiday, that someone will be there to answer my queries.
Can I be assured that if I ask what seems to be a dumb question to you. that I won’t be compared to Britney Spears,
And that is the real reason I’ve bitten, to register my disgust at your depiction of John Resig. People who do that to anyone are lower than a snake’s belly IMV.
You;ve flown in on a very interesting thread, well reasoned by everyone, made a lot of noise and shit all over the place like a seagull.
I’ve made my points. I will never again give you the oxygen of a reply.
Paul.

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:32:47 +0000

@TNO
Yes, I think we will soon…
Lot’s of people have been asking for “commenting support”, in fact enough to make it worthwhile… ;)

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:31:25 +0000

@paulhan
I’m not really sure if you realize this, but I think I pretty effectively proved every single point in that presentation to be roughly 110% *wrong*…!
(That is in *my* link)
.
[flamebait]
But I guess I can’t get you all, the top 5% smartest among you is enough… ;)
[/flamebait]
.
Seriously, if you prefer PHP (yes, I followed your link) then why don’t you *say* so…
Ra-Ajax is (probably) only, at least *mostly* for people on .Net / Mono from *before*…
I’m to threat to YOU…!

By: paulhan

paulhan — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:02:13 +0000

@TNO
Perfect link. Encapsulates for me exactly why I wouldn’t ever use Ra-Ajax. Thanks

By: TNO

TNO — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:20:16 +0000

@Thomas:
It would be nice if you allowed comments on your blog. Would it be to much trouble to allow it especially for this topic? (plus it would help steer me away from trying to follow the same discussion in 2 places)

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:40:39 +0000

@TNO
http://ra-ajax.org/killing-the-myths-of-managed-ajax-frameworks.blog
.
Here’s my answer to that presentation, taking one point at the time … ;)

By: Joeri

Joeri — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:34:02 +0000

@TNO: I would have to agree. I develop a suite of business apps (php). A common theme is that our performance bottlenecks are often related to server capacity or client-server network capacity. Latency especially can really obliterate a typical ajax app, due to the excessive roundtripping you get when ui state is spread across the client and server.
.
We’re moving to a thin server architecture out of necessity. We need to grow our app capability-wise, but we can’t get more server hardware to throw at the problem. Also, we need to give reasonable performance over high-latency connections, so an architecture that’s based on lots of rpc calls is out of the question. In practice, the only thing that works for me is to treat the server as evil, only to be contacted when it can no longer be avoided.

By: TNO

TNO — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:07 +0000

@Thomas,
I think you may get some enlightenment from this presentation. It sums up decently well some reasons why there is a resistance to your line of thinking with a significant group of people:
.
http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=dfxgjqrf_196fr6ct4f2
.
Not that I use Dojo or anything, but the Thin Server Architecture crowd I do subscribe to. Maybe you can see where a few of us are coming from.

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:53:51 +0000

@Breton
That is probably among the most beautiful things I’ve ever read :)
I assume it’s OK I copy it…?
.
That sentence actually got to me to such an extend that I followed your link and saw your “Web School Awesome” articles – really great work…!
.
Listen, I *think* we have some overlapping goals after reading your blogs and seeing your comment, if you send me an email to thomas@ra-ajax.org I would appreciate having some email conversations exchanging some thoughts with you…
A nice start would be if you could let me know why you did those HTML articles…

By: fzammetti

fzammetti — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 05:23:42 +0000

@psvensson: That is quite possibly the most clever way I’ve ever been insulted :)

By: Breton

Breton — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:42:16 +0000

“Because when people discovers the fact that it’s virtually impossible to build anything slightly more advanced then digg2-0.com in jQuery – say like for instance an accounting system or a CRM system then they will turn away from Ajax and go with ActiveX2.0 technology like Silverlight or Flex – since they feel that “Ajax is broken”…”

Try this on for size:

“With ra-ajax, there’s no need to switch to proprietary frameworks like silverlight or flex when your business requirements become more complex. Application scalability is important to us, so with our technology you can very rapidly create the simplest of sites, or the most complex multifaceted dynamic applications, all while leveraging the skills you already have. How is this possible you ask? well…

*feature x means you don’t have to foo any of your bars, just to lex your cross browser parsers
* our dynamic recompilation engine increases the efficiency of your application without having to refactor your existing codebase
* The compact syntax of your rollybar content system means that you can get your business goals expressed on the web, faster, without having to write a single line of html, or worry about IE6″

It is very possible to associate your framework with many positive things, and get attention, without having emotional and publically embarassing explosions. Focus on why your framework is better. If stating the facts about it isn’t good enough, then maybe that should tell you something.

By: psvensson

psvensson — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:40:43 +0000

Flightless bird.

By: fzammetti

fzammetti — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:35:25 +0000

“This argument reminds me of when hans reiser was arguing on the linux kernel mailing lists why reiserfs was a superior fs. Technically, he was often right, but the way he argued his point, with insults and accusations, made people very unwilling to give him the light of day”

It could be worse. He could have killed you.

What, too soon??

(sorry, I know it’s not in especially good taste, but sometimes a joke is just sitting there like a big-ass pinata that just HAS to be wacked)

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:54:21 +0000

@Rene
Regarding; “U have yet to come up with any argument to your favor in this discussion that makes any sense at all.”
.
Because when people discovers the fact that it’s virtually impossible to build anything slightly more advanced then digg2-0.com in jQuery – say like for instance an accounting system or a CRM system then they will turn away from Ajax and go with ActiveX2.0 technology like Silverlight or Flex – since they feel that “Ajax is broken”…
.
@Joeri
These argument are not like the ones going back and forth between Vi and Emacs. A better comparison would be to use Assembly versus C or C versus C++ or C++ versus Java…
.
@espascarello
“Right now the examples are slow”
I have written about that here; http://ra-ajax.org/why-is-ra-ajax-so-slow.blog

By: wukfit

wukfit — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:00:39 +0000

Me: Just a Web Developer/Designer

About 4 years (before YUI, GWT, when Dojo was very young and tibco GI cost $$$$) I wrote an entire GUI/Widget toolkit in JS – why? Because as the company I work for needed to build rich web apps but the (Java/C) developers didn’t want to learn web technologies… about a year later they binned my toolkit and went with Echo2 so they could just write Java.

It “felt” wrong then, it feels wrong now… the developers (where I work) would choke at the suggestion that they should write C and cross compile to Java or visa-versa… they would rather spend their time learning and understanding the required language…

For what it’s worth… @ThomasHansen: I read Ajaxian daily and have come accross your posts before. From what I recall they mostly consist of pluging your framework and/or abusing others in the industry – IMHO, and considering I’m a “consumer” of such frameworks, not the best way to market your product or build a brand…

By: Venkman

Venkman — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:02:56 +0000

@ThomasHansen: “I got your attention…?
And if that’s what it takes to have your attention, then I am willing to do it that way.”

Then you’ve completely failed. You got my “slightly prejudiced attention”. And you only got it this once. The fact that you write that way, added to the fact that you confess you’re willing to write that way just to get my attention, completely destroys any interest I might have in reading you. Sorry, but that’s just the way that it is.

By: ReneKoch

ReneKoch — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:45:28 +0000

@ThomasHansen, what makes “Managed Ajax” and Open Web have do with each other ? what does MS wanting to use JQuery have to do with any of this…
“but fact is unless Managed Ajax “wins” Open Web loose…!” … how???
U have yet to come up with any argument to your favor in this discussion that makes any sense at all.
“…And I succeeded – at least so far. You read it, right…?” so what did u succeed in? other than make a bunch of Ajaxian’s roll there eyes at your comments. (and NO u did not make me wanna read your blog since u act like spoiled child).

By: ThomasHansen

ThomasHansen — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:43:15 +0000

@Venkman
Thank you for a pretty mature comment about my ranting (yes it was an emtional rant, and I admit that)
.
The problem is that when I try to be “reasonable and mature” nobody reads my stuff – - which *is* making me quite angry and jealous – yes I know. The problem is that I *know* I am right, and most *others-know-too*. At least those with skills and knowledge to check up my claims.
But the wrong guys are getting all the attention for the wrong technologies because it fits some journalist’s agenda, or some corporation’s agenda or because some guy with a blog have invested in the technology etc…
.
It’s very similar in fact to what happened to the music industry about 30 years ago. When the quality of main stream music dropped like a rock in the sea…
.
Hence the Britney Spears association…
.
And when it comes to something as important as the Open Web – which is our ability to actually remove lock-ins we’ve had on our necks as developers for soon to become 30 years, then giving the wrong solutions attention is wrong. And helps jeopardize this opportunity we now have…
.
I don’t really want to have this attention, but fact is unless Managed Ajax “wins” Open Web loose…! Microsoft has proven this themselves with their latest “Embrace jQuery strategy” – and then Silverlight and ActiveX “wins”… And that is a BAD thing, a REALLY bad thing…
.
You say I shouldn’t write when I’m angry, in fact I didn’t write that blog when I was angry. I consciously took two hours of walking my dog before I wrote it. I did it as a social experiment. And I succeeded – at least so far. You read it, right…?
I got your attention…?
And if that’s what it takes to have your attention, then I am willing to do it that way. Not because I want to, but because the Open Web needs it to prevail…
.
It worked for Bill Hicks, right…?
And I am willing to test it to see if it works for Managed Ajax too…
.
Anyway, thanx for reading and thanx for giving me great feedback…
.
PS!
If you want to see my “mature writings” all you need to do is click “backwards” at that blog, but none of that stuff gets the attention it deserves… :(